[swagadelic]

I'm not trolling nor am I a troll, I'm not gonna sit back and let this guy tell me that i need a $500 amp for these $250 budget headphones, because he thinks they can rival the HD800s, which he hasn't even heard before. And then he has the audacity to suggest we have a logical discussion about it, logically discussing illogical nonsense,that is just funny to me. Trust me i'm not trolling, just teaching someone who knows nothing about what they're talking about, that's how people learn, otherwise he will continue spouting nonsense, i'm doing him a favor by enlightening him to how wrong he truly is and how absurd he sounds. @swagadelic

You think you're teaching? More pathetic than I thought.
Everything I've said is true and it's OK that you don't believe me. Trust me I couldn't care less. Its just sad that because you don't believe me, and because YOU think it sounds stupid - means you can just bash people.

And you think you are teaching.

You are throwing out numbers and speaking as if you have expertise on the matters you're discussing. If you do, it should be no problem for you to substantiate that.

Beyond my skepticism, I really am curious about the science of what you're talking about, and would appreciate more resources, which I haven't been able to find through cursory Google searches.

What numbers are you confused about that don't turn up on Google that I'm throwing around?

 

[DarkFlames]

You've been proven wrong multiple times, why do you refuse to learn? You choose to remain ignorant in the face of knowledge and facts,why?

 

[swagadelic]

You've been proven wrong multiple times, why do you refuse to learn? You choose to remain ignorant in the face of knowledge and facts,why?

Haha, what have I been proven wrong on
Which facts?

 

[Tshiknn]

What numbers are you confused about that don't turn up on Google that I'm throwing around?

Here's one:

as i said in previous reply, getting roughly 8x the power that the headphones are rated at isnt a good thing.
what you need is a much less powered amp but with the right ohm matching.
you dont need 2500mw @ 40 ohm, you want 250mw @ 64 ohm with an 8 ohm (8-24 ohm should be good enough) output impedance for the perfect match. sure if you have an amp that does all that but with more power, then its just a matter of not turning the dial up that much, ofc .

The idea that a headphone amplifier with 24 ohm output impedance would be preferable to one with, say, an output impedance under 1 ohm goes directly against what I've heard from other sources, which state that in this case it would be better to have an output impedance under ~8 ohms. So I'm curious about where you got your numbers here. And again, though I am skeptical, I am more than open to the idea that you may be right, but I would like to know where you got this information.

 

[DarkFlames]

Haha, what have I been proven wrong on
Which facts?

If you don't know what i'm talking about, then you are beyond my ability to teach you anything. Continue to think you know everything, and can never be proven wrong. Why don't you do some introspection and question your own ideals a bit, I think that may help you in the future

 

[swagadelic]

Here's one:

The idea that a headphone amplifier with 24 ohm output impedance would be preferable to one with, say, an output impedance under 1 ohm goes directly against what I've heard from other sources, which state that in this case it would be better to have an output impedance under ~8 ohms. So I'm curious about where you got your numbers here. And again, though I am skeptical, I am more than open to the idea that you may be right, but I would like to know where you got this information.

I got that information from testing them with amps around 1 ohm output. That's it. And that is exactly what I said aswell. And since you're quoting old posts you could also quote the one I said just after explaining that my sample size is low, and that YMMV. (considering the ohm matching)

 

[swagadelic]

If you don't know what i'm talking about, then you are beyond my ability to teach you anything. Continue to think you know everything, and can never be proven wrong. Why don't you do some introspection and question your own ideals a bit, I think that may help you in the future

OK guy

 

[peter123]

Here's one:

The idea that a headphone amplifier with 24 ohm output impedance would be preferable to one with, say, an output impedance under 1 ohm goes directly against what I've heard from other sources, which state that in this case it would be better to have an output impedance under ~8 ohms. So I'm curious about where you got your numbers here. And again, though I am skeptical, I am more than open to the idea that you may be right, but I would like to know where you got this information.

Thank you for taking the time and being more well behaved than I managed to. This was one of the things I also reacted on as it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying the HD800S out of this $59 device

Unfortunately it has only balanced output so not for the K712 unless one re-wire them. Hopefully in the future it'll be a single ended option as well.....

 

[Tshiknn]

I got that information from testing them with amps around 1 ohm output. That's it. And that is exactly what I said aswell. And since you're quoting old posts you could also quote the one I said just after explaining that my sample size is low, and that YMMV. (considering the ohm matching)

So about your assurance that an 8 ohm output impedance will guarantee "maximum voltage swing," could you further explain that? I am still pretty hazy on the actual engineering principles here. Hopefully one day I'll know enough to be conversant in this topic.

 

[swagadelic]

So about your assurance that an 8 ohm output impedance will guarantee "maximum voltage swing," could you further explain that? I am still pretty hazy on the actual engineering principles here. Hopefully one day I'll know enough to be conversant in this topic.

Memory not so good, mind quoting where I gave any sort of guarantee or assurance.
About general impedance matching there are tons of articles on that. It's a very old principle though and certainly not limited to the world of headphones.
I'll see if I can find the article I read explaining voltage swing and impedance matching for headphones. It's all about current
The headbox 500 eur amp I'm ravingg about has 4 current settings. Well I think that's actually a simple switch that takes the current through 4 different resistors giving 4 different output impedances to chose from,

 

[Tshiknn]

Memory not so good, mind quoting where I gave any sort of guarantee or assurance.
About general impedance matching there are tons of articles on that. It's a very old principle though and certainly not limited to the world of headphones.
I'll see if I can find the ones I've read that talks about what I talk about regarding that.

I guess describing it as "assurance" is kind of disingenuous on my part.
If you could, that would be great.

 

[swagadelic]

I guess describing it as "assurance" is kind of disingenuous on my part.
If you could, that would be great.

i cant find where ive read that.
so ive got nothing to back up anything ive said. thats fine though; i respect people needing more facts to go by than the findings of one random guy on the internet.
and honestly, thats the way ive presented what ive found, aswell. i never set out to be an expert in fact ive explicitly said im not.
anyway, i cant provide anything to back up what im saying atm, so ill concede. however i still am personally sure of the fact (yes it is fact to me) that the k712 scale tremendously depending on power source.
and lets not forget that the power cord is actually a power cord. its voltage in there. audio is not 1s and 0s its analog. so its actual current going thru those wiring powering the drivers.
to me that alone combining my causal know-how on electrical engineering - is that you can drive something sufficiently - and not sufficiently. the thing might work on both - but will either overheat, explode, die sooner than the normal lifespan, and some other symtoms.
its the same here honestly, if the drivers on the k712 dont get the juice they want they just dont sound good.

also impedance matching is not something relegated to headphones . its actually more a general rule; that applies to many things acoustics being one and electrical engineering another.

and to the thread in general;
i dont like the general hostility towards me for simply stating what im experiencing. i mean thats pretty good thing to do right? i dont get why i have to get ridicule or other passive aggressive comments based on my findings. if you feel im talking out of my ass on some subjects then correct me! no need for the ridicule. peace.

 

[abmwinnoch]

that you can drive something sufficiently - and not sufficiently. the thing might work on both - but will either overheat, explode, die sooner than the normal lifespan, and some other symtoms.
its the same here honestly, if the drivers on the k712 dont get the juice they want they just dont sound good.

The thing I struggle to understand here is what exactly is meant by delivering 'enough' power. I am firmly in the- AKG712's do scale significantly- camp, yet what I have experienced myself is cheap integrated amplifier headphone outputs easily driving the 712's in terms of volume; they will be at ear-splitting volume levels and the knob is barely past 10oclock. Yet they sound poor with the afforementioned lack of bass, one-tone flat sound. I've also plugged them into an audioquest firefly (no hardwear volume control), with a phone usb out as source, where they do not go loud enough at full volume; yet they still sound good. Better than from the cheap/loud amplifier.
So it can't just be about raw electrical power. There must be another factor that more expensive heaphone amps do differently that 'open-up' heaphones like the 712. Is that impedance perhaps? Sorry despite doing basic electronics courses a number of decades ago, I'm not knowledgable about how these things apply to headphones so any explanation, or a link to the appropriate explanation in this thread, would be appreciated.

 

[swagadelic]

The thing I struggle to understand here is what exactly is meant by delivering 'enough' power. I am firmly in the- AKG712's do scale significantly- camp, yet what I have experienced myself is cheap integrated amplifier headphone outputs easily driving the 712's in terms of volume; they will be at ear-splitting volume levels and the knob is barely past 10oclock. Yet they sound poor with the afforementioned lack of bass, one-tone flat sound. I've also plugged them into an audioquest firefly (no hardwear volume control), with a phone usb out as source, where they do not go loud enough at full volume; yet they still sound good. Better than from the cheap/loud amplifier.
So it can't just be about raw electrical power. There must be another factor that more expensive heaphone amps do differently that 'open-up' heaphones like the 712. Is that impedance perhaps? Sorry despite doing basic electronics courses a number of decades ago, I'm not knowledgable about how these things apply to headphones so any explanation, or a link to the appropriate explanation in this thread, would be appreciated.

Yeah that's exactly my finding too.
You people and your sources. all right at this time I'm curious for myself too since I really do need to brush up on that whole thing about how different output impedance deliver completely different power. I guess look at it like a faucet that is either fully open or just dripping.

I'll try to find some good sources.. Also alot of people get confused that power means volume. That's not at all the case since you can go uber loud just from a phone on these.

just from electrical engineering standpoint not proper output impedance means they draw more voltage and don't get enough current or less voltage and draw 'too much' current. However I will gladly pick the low output impedance power than the high impedance power.

And depending on the power that gets delivered they will sound different.

 

[swagadelic]

just got the senns IE8. for cheap as heck. wow! best iem i heard yet anyway. a bit boomy but they have bass control so at its lowest setting they sound fine. also a bit of a bump in the midbassy area. quite similar to the k712 actually in sound signature; but slightly more neutral and even clearer than the k712. i am very excited to see how they respond to eq.
they beat the crap out the srh940; although i prefer the bass impact on the srh - its not as boomy and a bit more refined there vs the ie8.
ofc k712 has them all beat in terms of sub-bass; but the srh940 wins in terms of overall bass (its much more neutral than the k712 which has a significant midbass bump thats not very pleasant without EQ correction)
however the detail on the low-lows on the k712 is incredible, cannot hear pitch on the sub like on the k712