[kelly]

No human with profit at stake is unbiased. One may believe that he or she is unbiased and attempt to act on such beliefs but that does not make the beliefs true.

What I find interesting is not whether or not Tyll is biased but that so many people care. He is one guy who runs a headphone and amp business. It's amazing that his opinions counts for so much regardless of what you think of his bias.

 

[slindeman]

Quote:

Conspiracy theorists

Shame on you Joe Bloggs. Shame on you. Isn't it obvious Headroom is out to ruin the HD590? Everything seems to point to that conclusion. I heard a rumor that Headroom sacrificed an HD590 at the altar of the HD600 demon-goddess. Didn't you know a kilo of blue-marbled carbon fibre costs Sennheiser 666 dollars, and that the top-left corners of all of the 0's on all HD600 headphones have little microscopic dots, making them HD666s? A temp worker at Sennheiser once suggested making a carbon fibre version of the HD590, the HD610. Headroom found that temp worker. The blood-stained suggestion box at Sennheiser has remained empty ever since.

Quote:

The 590 wasn't out yet.

I'm certain it was. It's been out for a long time now, longer than the new Headroom site has been up.

Quote:

Brian, your pro-HD 590/anti-HD 600 campaign is causing you to make some pretty wacky accusations.

MacDEF, you've just aced the final exam of Understatement 101.

Or is that Prophecy 101. See below.

Quote:

You are wrong I think to assume that I am just mad at Headroom for their remarks about the 590. The real truth is that their remarks about the 590 were so incredibly stupid and childish that it put their whole operation in question as far as I am concerned. . . .I've met Tyll in person and he doesn't at all come of like a dispassionate observer. He is a friendly but he's got a near religious fanaticism for his own point of view.

For a second I thought you lifted those descriptions of Tyll and Headroom directly from your autobiography. Then I came to that f word. Whew! Thank goodness.

bkelly, be more clear, please. Are you accusing Headroom of deceit. Of dishonesty. What do you mean by "whole operation in question."

 

[bkelly]

To All Concerned,

Please note that on Headroom's "Product Measurement" page they have a chart for a frequency test of the HD600 that is plainly different from the one on the page where the phones are comparatively tested.

This chart also shows a graph that is much closer to the actual sound of these phones in my opinion.

I just know that there is an adequate explanation for this. I just know it.





Thanks
Brian

 

[bkelly]

Slindeman,

No, I wouldn't call what Headroom is doing as deceit, at least not delibetrate. I think, as I have said that they are pushing there own view which is a view on their own preferences. All this would be OK except that they are not promoting their ideas as opinions but rather as worthy of being considered facts. Their criticisms of the 590 were just as I say; stupid and childish. For that reason I find it hard to take them as seriously as others seem to around Head-Fi.

It is also clear from there own literature that they believe that there is basically only one headpphone in the world and that is the HD600. They pay tribute to a few unaffordable exotics but no more than that.

Once more, for the record, I am not anti the 600's I like them almost as much as the 590's and in some instances more. I have called these phones opposite equals and I think I will stick with that. I would recommend them to anyone who liked the 600's but thought that they were to laid back sounding. The 590's are more similar to the 600's than some people would like to admit. One is laid back and the other is more aggressive. Since we are talking in terms of degrees both of these characteristics could be considered flaws and in the end it is just a matter of which one you want to live with.

Joe Bloggs,

I don't say that they have a political agenda but rather a financial and professional one.

Kelly,

I agree, wholeheartedley!







Best
Brian

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by bkelly Please note that on Headroom's "Product Measurement" page they have a chart for a frequency test of the HD600 that is plainly different from the one on the page where the phones are comparatively tested. This chart also shows a graph that is much closer to the actual sound of these phones in my opinion. I just know that there is an adequate explanation for this. I just know it.

LOL, Brian, you're just confirming my opinion that you have something personal against HeadRoom.

There is an "adequate explanation" for the difference. The page you reference is one on product measurements. They give an example of a frequency response graph (one for the HD 600). Also on that page they talk about their efforts to come up with what they say is a "meaningful" way to measure headphones, including a prominent link to their methodology. It explains quite clearly that they feel that frequency response graphs are difficult to interpret for the average customer,

OK, now go to the HD 600 product page:
http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?...tID=0020080600

Look at the different measurements you can view for the HD 600. There are three different frequency response graphs: regular, normalized, and smoothed normalized. The former is the "raw" FR graph. The latter two are based on HeadRoom's "best 10" methodology, with the smoothed version being the one HeadRoom uses as their "more meaningful for the average consumer" version.

Now go back to the Product Measurements" page to the section at the bottom where you can compare different headphones. Notice the pull-down menu, which tells you *which* graphs are used in the comparisons: Smoothed Normalized Frequency Response.

So all that's going on here is you're (unintentionally or intentionally) misreading what is pretty clear. If you read the text of the Product Measurements page, and the links they refer you to, it's clear that they feel the "normalized" FR graphs are more meaningful. So it follows that those are the graphs that they present in the "compare headphones" feature (otherwise they wouldn't have wasted their time coming up with the methodology).

Oh, and at the top of every graph is a title that clearly says what that graph represents

FYI:

Standard:
http://www.headphone.com/showGraph.php?graphID=86

Normalized:
http://www.headphone.com/showGraph.php?graphID=88




Quote:

It is also clear from there own literature that they believe that there is basically only one headpphone in the world and that is the HD600. They pay tribute to a few unaffordable exotics but no more than that.

Really? Have you actually read the products pages? Have you read their products guide? Did you miss all the places they mention the other headphones they love? They feel that the HD 600 are the best dynamic headphones on the market (so do a lot of other people in high-end audio, so there's nothing surprising there). But they also recommend many other headphones (they even say that the K1000 is their favorite "right now" whatever that means).

Brian, I guess I just don't understand all this animosity towards HeadRoom just because they like the HD 600 better than most other headphones -- the above shows that you're so quick to jump on them for being dishonest that you're not even paying attention to what's on the pages of their web site. As is clear from this thread, we all have favorites, even retailers (especially audio retailers). They won't always agree with us personally. The only real issue here seems to be that you don't agree with HeadRoom over which headphone they should like. I sure haven't seen anything here that suggests dishonesty.

 

[bkelly]

MacDEF,

I'll study up on the charts. For some reason I cannot access any other chart but the "Normalized" version.

I have nothing personal against Headroom. It's a professional grudge I have against them. I think there commentss about the 590's are unprofessional and amatuerish. Some people like Chevy's some people like Fords but people who like cars should be able to appreciate both.

I'll reprint the comment from Headroom literature that states unequivocably how they really feel about the 600's as opposed to other phones.

I'd like to commend you on your acceptance for the V6 and Judes also but it seems to me I have heard many comments about how ther bass is fake and boomy. I wasn't keeping score at the time but it seems to me there have been more detractors than fans. If I am wrong about this it wouldn't be intentional.

 

[kelly]

I believe Ford Motor Company owns Aston-Martin, Volvo and Jaguar. If so, then I like Ford. If these don't count then uhm... pass. And I like cars. I think you can like something and still have taste.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

To access the other kinds of FR charts, go to the headphone.com home page, then go to Product Stuff->Headphones, click on the headphones you want to look into, and in the dedicated page for the phones you can access all 3 FR charts.

Also, take a look at their product description for the HD590:

http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?...tID=0020080590

Quote:

Presenting a bright musical experience, the HD 590 can be detailed to the point of fatique, but they also provide good mids and tight bass. Another BioNetic baby from Sennheiser, they also don't skimp on comfort—their large earcups and padded headband keep you smiling. The HD 590 are efficient enough to be powered by a portable, but sound better with an amp. The HD 590 include velour earcups that keep your ears comfy during hours of listening. The earpieces are attached to a padded headband and rotate for a better fit. The cord is conveniently connected to one earpeice to eliminate cord tangling. They are also durable enough for everyday use and abuse.

No quite a glowing recommendation, but not exactly 'stupid and childish criticism' either.

 

[bkelly]

Joe Bloggs, MacDEF,

Your not reading what I am reading and if you went to the Headroom Tour you didn't read the comment posted right on the display that basically said that the 590's were so bad they were a "mistake".

Also this same quite is in their printed literature and if you read under the description for the 600's you will see, that despite their sometimes appearance of being objective they claim that this is there "favorite heaphone in all the world and that it is so good that it is in a "class of one" Oh yeah, what happened to the R-10 and about a half doxwn others worthy of consideration. In person Tyll laughed at Audio Technica as a manufacturer of headphonews in general. Reall objectivity there.

Now I know the 600 fans will claim that all of this is some kind of proof that their choice in headphones is the best but I am here to argue against such blind (deaf would have been a better choice) acceptance of this rather slanted point of view. It is also about as self-fulfiliing a prophecy as I have ever seen since Headroom is, in my opinion, designing equipment that flatters their own choice in headphones.

So I maintain my position about Headroom. Their comments about the 590 are "stupid and amatuerish". I play guitar and if I were to say that Andre' Segovia sucks because it was my personal opinion that would wrong on the same level that Headroom is wrong for their condemnation of the 590.

talk soon.





Best
Brian

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by bkelly Your not reading what I am reading and if you went to the Headroom Tour you didn't read the comment posted right on the display that basically said that the 590's were so bad they were a "mistake".

What HeadRoom has said is that the HD 590 was originally released as a replacement for the HD 580, and they thought that was a mistake. Which it was, and if you were being objective you'd agree with that statement. the HD 590 would have been a good addition to the Senn line, but as a replacement for the HD 580 it was a horrible mistake. It presented a completely different sound that was almost guaranteed to be disliked by those who liked the HD 580. Senn actually ended up agreeing and continued to make the HD 580 (and later introduced the HD 600 as an actual upgrade/successor). So you need to actually read the entire context, not just look at the word "mistake" -- if you read HeadRoom's description of the HD 590, they say the 590 are good, but a bit bright.


Quote:

if you read under the description for the 600's you will see, that despite their sometimes appearance of being objective they claim that this is there "favorite heaphone in all the world and that it is so good that it is in a "class of one"

Again, this is what I completely fail to understand. So what??? They never claim to be "objective." As I've said many times in this thread, no one is objective, everyone has an opinion. They think the HD 600 is the best all-around dynamic headphone. That's clearly stated by HeadRoom.

Quote:

Oh yeah, what happened to the R-10

Everything you quote was written before Tyll ever heard the R10. Not to mention the fact that <ahem> he's a retailer, and the R10 aren't even currently-marketed headphones, nor are the HP1000 which many people feel are better. Is he supposed to lengthen every description to read "We think these are the 2nd-best headphone in the world, but the other is out of production so you can't buy it, so here, buy the 2nd-best (we wanted to say it was the best but some people were upset with us because there was this $4,000 headphone that was produced a few years ago that was better so they thought we were being misleading by calling this the best, even though it's the one of the two you can still buy)."

Quote:

and about a half doxwn others worthy of consideration.

There may be a "half dozen" that are "worthy" to you. That would be your opinion; Tyll has his own opinion. Again, I just don't get all the animosity towards a retailer that actually goes out on a limb and says "we like this product better than any other." There's nothing wrong with that, and I personally prefer it to most retailers who will tell you anything you want to hear just to make a sale.


Quote:

In person Tyll laughed at Audio Technica as a manufacturer of headphonews in general. Reall objectivity there.

Actually, anyone knowledgeable about headphones would have done the same thing before a few months ago. Up until the release of the W2002, W100 line, can you name a high-end-quality AT headphone? Their stuff sucked.

Quote:

Now I know the 600 fans will claim that all of this is some kind of proof that their choice in headphones is the best

Actually, you may find this hard to believe, but this has nothing to do with me liking the HD 600. If Tyll was making this claim about the Grado RS1, I'd still be arguing the same thing I am now. You disagree with them about the HD 600 vs. the HD 590, fine, but I still fail to see anything "unprofessional" or "bad" about HeadRoom liking the HD 600 as their favorite dynamic headphone.


Quote:

but I am here to argue against such blind (deaf would have been a better choice) acceptance of this rather slanted point of view

Slanted? Every high-end audio review mag and site has rated the HD 600 better than the HD 590. It's considered the #1 current headphone by almost all of them (a few prefer the RS1). Does that "make them the best?" No, but it means that someone calling them the best isn't necessarily unprofessional or slanted.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally posted by bkelly ...comment posted right on the display that basically said that the 590's were so bad they were a "mistake". Also this same quite is in their printed literature and if you read under the description for the 600's you will see, that despite their sometimes appearance of being objective they claim that this is there "favorite heaphone in all the world and that it is so good that it is in a "class of one" Oh yeah, what happened to the R-10 and about a half doxwn others worthy of consideration. In person Tyll laughed at Audio Technica as a manufacturer of headphonews in general. Reall objectivity there.

So what did you expect from an outfit that has it's own specific agenda? Perhaps there is a greater profit margin on the HD600, hence the greater promotion. Who knows. All I know is that I would not trust a company whose supposed 'leader' went out of his way to ridicule, insult and talk down to the people here who tried to drum up interest in reviving the flat Grado pads. Why would people want to do business with a person who laughed at them or insulted them? Some here sure would, but not me. Who needs 'em? There are other options.

 

[bkelly]

MacDEF,

Your resoponses are a lot of double talk as far as I am concerned. Please read the last sentence of my last post and you will see clearly what I consider an professional attitude.

Headroom's attitude doesn't light me up. I think they have a very narrow, slanted and self-serving point od view. Why you insist on defending them is beyond me. If they are so great surely they can stand up to a little just criticism.

Talk soon.





Best
Brian

 

[Tim D]

Headroom has already made their own criticism of their own normalized curve.

Headroom sells headphones...it is bad business practice to speak positively of headphones that no one likes, and negatively of headphones that everyone likes. As a headphone e-tailer, like it or not, headroom has pretty good tabs on what people like or not.

It is fine to defend the merits of the 590...but I wouldn't go so far as to pretend there is a hidden army in support of the 590 that would rival the support the HD580/600's or Ety's get.

Myself, the HD580/600 will always remain a lukewarm pair of headphones to me considering the upkeep, but I personally have a dislike for practically everything else in the Sennheiser line besides the Orpheus.

Headroom however did help me (and others) find my still favorite headphones, the ER4S.

Why aren't they expounding the virtues of HD590's as much as the 580/600 or ER4S? I for one am quite glad they did not since it saved me return shipping costs and time.

Headroom also were early advocates of the AKG501 long before it held popular support by headphone fans as far as I'm concerned.

It is not smart business sense to have a narrow slanted point of view...in fact they are doing the opposite by appealing to the ears of most. In order for them to best be "self-serving" they need to appeal to the masses. Hmmm, wow why one might notice that the headphones they recommend tend to be favorites among the community. Believe it or not, a lot of the mainstay recommended headphones came from Headroom first and foremost before the community...it includes things as the KSC-35, Ety's, etc. This was when there was no head-fi, but just headwize linking to the old classic headroom list of headphones. Has anyone found a new portable headphone that just beats the KSC-35 in everyway but is just being down-trodden from evil headroom? I think not. And there are of course headphones they don't sell that a few people like or rave about yes...but they are either boutique items, or seem to end up getting quite mixed reviews as far as I can see.

Are they perfect? No...but I would personally cite other headphone/amp examples besides the HD590 to see their "biases". Here is one...their initial review of the HD490 wasn't so bad and it was a recommended headphone. I think this headphone is a dark piece of Sennheiser #^@$, and so did many others who tried it. Their "review" of this headphone was buried or downgraded a bit especially as better cheap Senns came out. I still think their current review of the headphone is too good for these things.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by bkelly MacDEF, Your resoponses are a lot of double talk as far as I am concerned. Please read the last sentence of my last post and you will see clearly what I consider an professional attitude.

If you're honestly calling my responses "double talk" you must not understand what that phrase means. There's no double talk in anything I have said in this thread. I've been exceedingly consistent and clear. If you disagree with my position on the HD 600 and HD 580 both being included in HeadRoom's composite, fine. But to use the lame tactic of trying to belittle opposing opinions by calling them "double talk" (especially when the term does not apply)...


As for the last sentence of your last post, if that's really all you meant, you should have stated just that in the beginning:

Quote:

I play guitar and if I were to say that Andre' Segovia sucks because it was my personal opinion that would wrong on the same level that Headroom is wrong for their condemnation of the 590.

Instead, you've said a heck of a lot more in this thread that just that. First, you continually and dramatically exaggerated HeadRoom's "HD 590 bashing." The truth was shown by several of us to be much milder and much more benign, including quotes from HeadRoom's literature. Then you accused HeadRoom of being dishonest, citing as "proof" graphs that you apparently didn't bother to read closely. They were shown to be anything but dishonest. What you are left with is your personal feelings that HeadRoom is somehow doing a disservice to the audio community by not praising the HD 590 as much as the HD 600, even though that bias clearly refects the preferences of both consumers and the audio community at large. TimD's message was a pretty darned good one, and maybe you can read it since you think my messages are "double talk."



Quote:

Headroom's attitude doesn't light me up. I think they have a very narrow, slanted and self-serving point od view. Why you insist on defending them is beyond me.

I'm defending them in this particular situation because your criticisms are based on your point of view rather than any objective merit. Basically you're saying that because you have different opinions than them, they're "unprofessional." Every single criticism you have presented of HeadRoom has been entirely based on the fact that you like the HD 590 and you're bugged by them not liking them as much as you.

I'm simply stating that your arguments aren't compelling, and that you're criticizing them out of the same motive you accuse them of having: a narrow, slanted, and self-serving point of view.

 

[Eagle_Driver]

And if Headroom thought the HD 590 wasn't as good as the HD 580 or the HD 600, they're not the only ones saying so. Even Bill Keyser (of GoodCans.com) - who is known to prefer Grados over everything else - says that the HD 590 is slightly inferior to the older HD 580.

I own both the HD 590 and the HD 600, and I personally prefer the latter. Even from my modest portable setup. (And why in the world is The Great Indoors charging the same price for both the HD 590 and the HD 600?)