Testing the claim: "I can hear differences between lossless formats."

[bigshot]

  AIFF sounds colder and less realistic, while WAV sounds warm and natural.
 
Conclusion: WAV and FLAC 0 are PERFECT. AIFF and ALAC are NOT.

 
No. All it means that your equipment isn't good at playing AIFF and ALAC. Bit perfect is bit perfect. The error is entering in your  *playback* not the file format itself.
 
What kind of equipment are you playing these files back on? I would immediately suspect that the sound card is the culprit.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  No. All it means that your equipment isn't good at playing AIFF and ALAC. Bit perfect is bit perfect. The error is entering in your  *playback* not the file format itself.
 
What kind of equipment are you playing these files back on?

 
Yeah, it could have been worded more carefully.
 
He told me that he is using an Apple computer, but he'll have to chime in with more details.
 
I know you're knowledgeable about how to do tests. Think you could lay out some instructions?

 

[Brooko]

Here - try this : http://www.head-fi.org/t/655879/setting-up-an-abx-test-simple-guide-to-ripping-tagging-transcoding

If he's doing it on a Mac though I'm not sure what software he could use.

 

[KlarkKentThe3rd]

   
No. All it means that your equipment isn't good at playing AIFF and ALAC. Bit perfect is bit perfect. The error is entering in your  *playback* not the file format itself.
 
What kind of equipment are you playing these files back on? I would immediately suspect that the sound card is the culprit.

I am not talking about information, but how it is converted back into sound. I know all the bits are there, but the hardware/software reads the stream differently. And I really wish someone in charge of making sound cards/players would look into that.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I am not talking about information, but how it is converted back into sound. I know all the bits are there, but the hardware/software reads the stream differently. And I really wish someone in charge of making sound cards/players would look into that.

 
You're both in agreement there. The issue would be with the playback on your system.
 
If you had a Windows PC, you could use Brooko's guide and foobar2000's ABX Comparator to provide verification for us.
 
Here is an alternative for Mac: ABXTester
 
If you're clear about how to use it, please use that program to test and verify your ability to differentiate between playback of the aforementioned formats. (Since you said you can hear the difference instantly, it should be simple enough.) If it doesn't let you save the documentation, at least show us screenshots of your results.

 

[limpidglitch]

  I am not talking about information, but how it is converted back into sound. I know all the bits are there, but the hardware/software reads the stream differently. And I really wish someone in charge of making sound cards/players would look into that.

Ah, but are the streams read differently?
In the case of ALAC and FLAC the files are 'unpacked', rearranged into raw PCM, and read. The PCM streams that are read are identical, and the 'reader' has no idea wether the PCM stream it's reading was an ALAC or FLAC file in its former life.
The 'packing' and 'unpacking' algorithms are different, but also they are strikingly similar in concept.

 

[castleofargh]

 

  I am not talking about information, but how it is converted back into sound. I know all the bits are there, but the hardware/software reads the stream differently. And I really wish someone in charge of making sound cards/players would look into that.

 
You're both in agreement there. The issue would be with the playback on your system.
 
If you had a Windows PC, you could use Brooko's guide and foobar2000's ABX Comparator to provide verification for us.
 
Here is an alternative for Mac: ABXTester
 
If you're clear about how to use it, please use that program to test and verify your ability to differentiate between playback of the aforementioned formats. (Since you said you can hear the difference instantly, it should be simple enough.) If it doesn't let you save the documentation, at least show us screenshots of your results.

no an abx software is likely to turn each file into wave for playback, so pointless exercise.
recording the output signal with alac flac wave... would be one option.
having someone help to perform a blindtest and see how many times super3 is able to differentiate 2 codecs would also be nice.
but as both can be faked, it would mostly serve himself more than convince us. still it's always much better than "I know I heard it while knowing what I was listening to".
 
maybe give the model of computer, OS and media player used so if people have the same they can also try and see if they could get similar results? (I'm trying to keep an open mind here).

 

[esldude]

   
Actually, he is saying that his software (iTunes and Audacity) processes the data in different ("not perfect") ways during playback, resulting in an allegedly different sound. Everyone here is in agreement that lossless files can be converted to other lossless formats with no loss in data.
 
The next phase is proper testing. As I requested, if anyone can provide step-by-step instructions for him, it will be helpful.

Well a test I have done as well as others is to check realtime data transmission.  I have tried the various formats coming from a computer into SPDIF and recorded the digital result with a sound card having SPDIF input.  The result has been exactly identical data during realtime transmission with different playback software and any of the lossless formats.  WAV, AIFF, and FLAC.  Timing is handled by the DAC at the end so other possibilities are noise and timing.  Haven't found evidence of timing being effected nor noise being different in the audible band.  Next step was recording the DAC analog output with a good ADC.  Then nulling them.  There are some details in such a procedure that must be accounted for, but once they are, such files with all the various lossless formats null out around the thermal noise floor.  There is no difference to hear between them. 
 
The final remaining step is to say we don't know why so do blind testing.  If you contend WAV converted to AIFF sounds different, but sounds identical when converted back to WAV then you can use an ABX method playing back the same two file formats.  Foobar ABX will let you abx two files of different formats. 
 
Of course I believe from prior experience and the null results that you are wasting your time.  The two files put out the same bits and the same analog signal within the margin of error of the playback equipment.  There is no fundamental quality difference at audible levels.  Your perception is misleading you into hearing what isn't there in the physical signal.  But blind test yourself and see what you think. 

 

[esldude]

 
no an abx software is likely to turn each file into wave for playback, so pointless exercise.
recording the output signal with alac flac wave... would be one option.
having someone help to perform a blindtest and see how many times super3 is able to differentiate 2 codecs would also be nice.
but as both can be faked, it would mostly serve himself more than convince us. still it's always much better than "I know I heard it while knowing what I was listening to".
 
maybe give the model of computer, OS and media player used so if people have the same they can also try and see if they could get similar results? (I'm trying to keep an open mind here).

ABX software might turn them into wav, but I doubt it is necessarily the case.  If you are feeding a DAC over SPDIF, both type of files must become a conforming SPDIF data stream.  No reason software can't switch near instantly to do that with the two file types.  Turning all types to wav first would be a waste of computing power so I doubt it is done. Basically they all must become SPDIF conforming PCM for transmission to the DAC.

 

[bigshot]

Do you have an iPod or iPhone? Can you detect the difference there?

 

[money4me247]

  Do you have an iPod or iPhone? Can you detect the difference there?

i don't think that ipods and iphones can play lossless

 

[Music Alchemist]

  i don't think that ipods and iphones can play lossless

 
What? Yes they can. If you install Rockbox (on some iPods, that is), they can even play FLAC!

 

[money4me247]

   
What? Yes they can. If you install Rockbox (on some iPods, that is), they can even play FLAC!

damnnn... that is very different from the ipod of my day... lol actually i never hadda i ipod. dell dj ftwww lollll

 

[Music Alchemist]

  damnnn... that is very different from the ipod of my day... lol actually i never hadda i ipod. dell dj ftwww lollll

 
That's the tip of the iceberg. Look at all the crazy features of the iPod touch! (I have the iPod classic.)

 

[bigshot]

A regular iPod can play WAV, AIFF and ALAC. It should be easy to ID the WAV if he put three files on random shuffle and let someone else ID the tracks after he called them out.