Surprise! HF-1 (Head-Fi 1)!!!
Feb 6, 2006 at 4:46 PM Post #1,066 of 1,119
I in no way think that the Head-Fi community or its members as bad. I guess what really hurt was that I really like and care for this community and that a very few betrayed a trust. Yes you bought it you own it. Yes you can do with it whatever you want. The thing is that it will make it difficult to do a custom HF headphone again.

I want to THANK everyone who bought the HF-1 and kept them or resold them here. You guys are the best and make the possibilty of another such sale still possible. To those of you who sold on e-bay, maybe you didn't realize what you were doing. I hope that is the case.

Let me play out a scenerio....

Grado Labs makes 10,000 HF-1 headphones and sells it on the open market. Then the gift of an exclusive headphone to Head-Fi is LOST. Then it is you who would feel betrayed. And rightfully so! You bought into a limited edition, HF-1 made exclusively for Head-Fi. Please note that this is NEVER going to happen because of the spirit in which the HF-1 was made by Grado Labs and sold by TTVJ. We will not let you down.

All the first post about the chances of a HF-2 was about was that the chances of that happening are slim now. I gave the reasons why and will leave it at that.

Todd
 
Feb 6, 2006 at 4:53 PM Post #1,067 of 1,119
Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd
I in no way think that the Head-Fi community or its members as bad. I guess what really hurt was that I really like and care for this community and that a very few betrayed a trust. Yes you bought it you own it. Yes you can do with it whatever you want. The thing is that it will make it difficult to do a custom HF headphone again.

I want to THANK everyone who bought the HF-1 and kept them or resold them here. You guys are the best and make the possibilty of another such sale still possible. To those of you who sold on e-bay, maybe you didn't realize what you were doing. I hope that is the case.

Let me play out a scenerio....

Grado Labs makes 10,000 HF-1 headphones and sells it on the open market. Then the gift of an exclusive headphone to Head-Fi is LOST. Then it is you who would feel betrayed. And rightfully so! You bought into a limited edition, HF-1 made exclusively for Head-Fi. Please note that this is NEVER going to happen because of the spirit in which the HF-1 was made by Grado Labs and sold by TTVJ. We will not let you down.

All the first post about the chances of a HF-2 was about was that the chances of that happening are slim now. I gave the reasons why and will leave it at that.

Todd



Thanks Todd. Sorry if any of my posts were harsh I just love my HF-1's with a passion and it angers me that people sold them on ebay - it's just I hate to think of John or you thinking of myself in the same light as those people who sold them on eBay. Thanks again, hope there's another HF in the future
smily_headphones1.gif
. And to be honest, I think most people here would be in favour of you charging more so that you guys don't lose out the next time round - your doing is the favour, you should be rewarded.
 
Feb 6, 2006 at 5:37 PM Post #1,069 of 1,119
Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd
I in no way think that the Head-Fi community or its members as bad. I guess what really hurt was that I really like and care for this community and that a very few betrayed a trust. Yes you bought it you own it. Yes you can do with it whatever you want. The thing is that it will make it difficult to do a custom HF headphone again.


I understand, share, and appreciate this sentiment. And my apologies for calling you "naive." Perhaps we can agree on "optimistic"? I don't want to drag this on any longer than necessary, but as you note, it is a very small percentage of headfiers that are not treating the HF-1 in the spirit for which it was intended. Further, this community makes its disdain for the practice of reselling the HF-1 outside of the FS forum pretty well known. How could anyone reasonably have expected the HF-1 to be kept in the Head-Fi community at a rate of 100%?

I think this community, as a whole, has done a commendable job of keeping the Head-Fi in the "family." Perfect? Of course not. But I think closing the door on the possibility of the HF-2 is an overreaction. Regardless, I, too, hope that the HF-1 resellers use the FS forum. I also hope that they don't gouge. If I ever sell my HF-1, I pledge to do so in the FS forum.
 
Feb 6, 2006 at 7:20 PM Post #1,070 of 1,119
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab
Bypassing your traditional reseller channel is dicey business.


Here's the thing I don't get - hasn't TTVJ commisioned the phones? It was his idea, right?

I see this stuff happening all the time in the guitar world. Some limited run of guitars built for a particular music shop or chain. No one ever has an issue with it.
 
Feb 6, 2006 at 8:05 PM Post #1,071 of 1,119
Hi Todd,

I didn't buy a pair of HF-1s because i didn't have the money at the time, and to be honest, I'm not that into the Grado sound (though I am considering a pair of SR60s, to give myself a chance). Anyway, what I think is most unfortunate is that you are upset about this. Even though I didn't buy the HF-1, I really appreciated that you put the time and energy into it.

I agree fully with something you said on a previous post, that there is a correct and honourable way to behave, and then there is everything else. Unfortunately too often too many people take the route of everything else, and even more unfortunately for our community that occurred too often in this case.

I had wondered if people would try to sell their HF-1's on eBay. I hoped that the self policing nature of Head-Fi would keep that to a minimum, and I think for the most part, it did. Many people have made the argument that once the customer bought the HF-1, they had every right to sell it to whomever they wanted to at whatever price the market would bear. While I agree with them on legal grounds; it is clear to me that they behaved in an unethical manner. There was no need to sell the headphones for a profit on eBay to non-Head-Fi'ers, there was plenty of demand on Head-Fi to purchase them. The law allows us to do many things which are clearly unethical, that doesn't mean we really have any good justification for doing it. We just don't have much official recourse when people make those decisions, except perhaps to shun individuals who behave that way. Were they legally entitled to sell them for a profit on eBay? Yes, of course. Did they damage good will and the reputation of all Head-Fi members? Definitely.

I just want you to know that as a Head-Fi member I appreciate what you do for our community. You're an honest retailer with a personal interest in our community and hobby. I am disappointed that this experience has left a sour taste in your mouth. I think that as a community we are fortunate to have a retailer(s) who/that behave(s) with integrity and who has a genuine interest in our community that we can buy from.

Sincerely,
Clutz
 
Feb 6, 2006 at 8:13 PM Post #1,072 of 1,119
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobeau
I see this stuff happening all the time in the guitar world. Some limited run of guitars built for a particular music shop or chain. No one ever has an issue with it.


Just curious, in the guitar case, is the limited edition guitar better than the regular version (or just re-labeled), and is it priced the same as the regular version?

The potential problem I see here if I were another dealer is that the HF-1 is priced the same as the the SR-225 and sounds better than the SR-225 by a mile (comparable to the RS-2 sound, IMHO). If I had an inventory of SR-225s on hand and someone is selling these HF-1s for the same price, I would definitely be concerned.

However, if Grado and TTVJ release another limited edition at a price/performance that would not compete with existing lines (e.g., note the PS-1 is priced at $1400), I don't see a problem. (A tweaked PS-1 at $1000 would be nice
biggrin.gif
)
 
Feb 6, 2006 at 8:30 PM Post #1,073 of 1,119
Quote:

Originally Posted by PATB
Just curious, in the guitar case, is the limited edition guitar better than the regular version (or just re-labeled), and is it priced the same as the regular version?


I believe so in both cases with a number of Les Paul runs since the early 80s.

Quote:

The potential problem I see here if I were another dealer is that the HF-1 is priced the same as the the SR-225 and sounds better than the SR-225 by a mile (comparable to the RS-2 sound, IMHO). If I had an inventory of SR-225s on hand and someone is selling these HF-1s for the same price, I would definitely be concerned.


I guess the severity of how limited the run is should be looked at, but the issue is temporary. If it develops into an exclusive established line then there is plenty of reason to be PO'ed.


I'm surprised that most Grado dealers aren't aware of Head-fi. I agree that keeping the phones in the community is a good thing, but don't see how keeping these off of eBay would prevent dealer backlash.
 
Feb 7, 2006 at 12:17 AM Post #1,074 of 1,119
First, DieIn A Fire - there was a 1 per member lin=mit. Some of the members bought up those that went up for sale in this forum. That I do not have a problem with thoguh it would be nice to see those who would like one to get one.

The Monkey, Sorry I lashed out - I just may indeed have been a little naive about how some people ( a very low percent at that!) would treat this special for Head-Fi. So - I have no hard feelings for what you said. I still don't think it benefitted Head-Fi by these leaving our community. I sort of look at it as a private Head-Fi treasure that has been sold to an outsider. I sold them only to members....

The phones were NOT commisssioned to me. Grado Labs and TTVJ worked hard to find some way to show appreciation to this community and acknowledge its members. It was a joint project from both companies to the members as well as a contribution to help keep Head-Fi going with a nice donation. Guitar world serves itself - we looked out for this community.

Clutz, A big Thanks to you for your kind words. It is you and the many like you who keep me involved with this community. I do like it here and think highly of the membership. A few who maybe just made a mistake or didnt think about what they were doing or maybe even knew but didn't care will not stop my support of Head-Fi.

PatB, Good points. You did not see me complain about PS-1 being sold on e-bay or anywhere else. It was not a headphone that was aimed at one group of people. It was sold to a foreign distributor and I was fortunate enough to be able to sell it in the USA. It was a diffferent child than the HF-1.

When a customer walks in and asks for a Grado headphone from his local dealer and he has never heard of it and calls Grado Labs to find out about it, well you can have a sticky situation.

Todd
 
Feb 7, 2006 at 1:19 AM Post #1,075 of 1,119
OK folks, no argument that this is a free country (thankfully) and people can do as they wish and often do.

In the spirit of the original "SURPRISE!" from Todd and John, all I can do is make a pledge and challenge others to consider the same:

If I EVER sell my HF-1s, I will only do so on Head-Fi and will donate $25 of the sale to Head-Fi.

Bob
 
Feb 7, 2006 at 1:37 AM Post #1,076 of 1,119
I agree that one can act as they please with something they purchased (so long as others aren't hurt by said actions); however, I also believe that it would be more appropriate to sell the 'phones to a member of Head-Fi, as some members missed out on the opportunity and would welcome a chance to own the legendary cans - I sold my HF-1 to papakoks for a reasonable amount (the $400+ eBay sales are insane) and he's enjoying the headphones. Another benefited because of the sale and the headphones remained within the community. This headphone is different than the HP-1000 and K 1000 (and their associated inflations) because the HF-1 was created for the community. I still maintain that people have the right to do whatever they wish with their gear and I harbor no ill-will against those who sell their cans via external methods, but confining the HF-1 sales to the community would be a noble gesture on behalf of the community. C’est la vie.
 
Feb 7, 2006 at 4:24 AM Post #1,077 of 1,119
Disclaimer: I don't own HF-1s (considered buying them, and decided not to do so). I'm not a member with mega-years posting in Head-Fi. However, I do peruse, have learned from and contribute to these forums, and own Grado 325i phones.

With the above being said, I read one of Todd's more recent posts in this thread, and thank him for the notice and accompanying thoughts regarding greatly diminished chances of an HF-2. My understanding is that Todd's efforts were salient to HF-1s being distributed. I remember reading the posts of persons placing HF-1 orders, of special requests (for various numbered phones being granted, etc.), of Todd tracking orders and assuring members, etc. I've never read anything that made me feel that Todd didn't bend over backwards and go way past the proverbial "exta mile" to help make the HF-1 offer happen. I wouldn't think of slighting those monumental efforts that clearly speak about going above and beyond the call of duty.

One of the major players in making the HF-1 offer a success is explaining to us that the chances of an offer like this happening again are "greatly diminished" and giving us reasons for that outcome. I respect that person's thoughts, honesty, and efforts. I think about how much that person did to make the HF-1 a reality for so many Head-Fiers and have no issue with Todd's point of view. However, telling Todd that his views are invalid is NOT something I will be doing.

It is the world we live in that oft times, "No good deed should go unpunished." At least to me, it seems like pouring salt in the wounds - to deprecate the explanation of someone who was so integral to helping bring something special to so many. Nor do I see the mindset of the cajolers diplomatically reversing the greatly diminished chances of an HF-2.

YMMV.
 
Feb 7, 2006 at 5:40 AM Post #1,078 of 1,119
Wow, I hadn't looked at this thread in a while. Interesting discussion.

My 2 cents:

I'm completely with Todd on this one. Grado and TTVJ made a limited profit so that we could enjoy something special. I believe in capiltalism, but I also believe in loyalty and good faith. To sell them on ebay was an act of pure, unadulterated, greed.

Even though I traded my pair away, I will always have a soft spot for them because of their significance. When I got rid of mine I was completely aware of the opportunity for money making, but I chose not to go that route, and I don't regret it at all.

I hope that, when all is said and done, if the opportunity arises for an HF2, that Todd and John will think about all the people like me, and try to forget the very few who took things in the other direction.
 
Feb 7, 2006 at 7:02 AM Post #1,079 of 1,119
Why didn't grado tell their dealers they where releasing a promotional headphone in advance?

If I was a dealer I'd have a very hard time getting annoyed over that - but I would get annoyed over finding no-one had told me about it.
 
Feb 7, 2006 at 8:15 AM Post #1,080 of 1,119
Though I'm supposed to be editing drivel here at the festive office, I've been interrupted by constellations of orange sores creeping across my wrists and thought I'd pause to offer my observations on this thread before running away to weep like a bipolar infant (MWAH-HA-HA-TEE-HEE-HEE-SOB-SPUTTER-SNIFF).

What troubles me most about the HF-1 aftermath has been the proliferation of anti-Grado screeds that have gathered on endlessly rotting Head-fi threads. In the case of certain manufacturers -- especially those whom numerous members have praised recently and conspicuously -- there has been a tendency to trespass the dividing line between reasonable devil's advocacy and trolling. Allow me to provide a few examples.

The Reasonably Outraged Quasi-Troll uses grassroots consumer advocacy as a defense, even though s/he has not actually bought the product being discussed, and is careful to appear reasonable about saying negative and incendiary things. Often, s/he attempts to obscure insult with numerous caveats and smileys.

It is entirely reasonable, the Quasi-Troll maintains, to characterize [Grado’s]/[Ray Samuels’s]/[Mikhail Rotenberg’s]/[insert name of popular manufacturer]'s quality control, profit margin, materials and construction as lacking. Never mind that, if there were an issue so glaring and ubiquitous, each company would not enjoy its positive rep among many long-term members and customers.

Another sort of public distraction is the Oh-Please! Quasi-Troll. This particular strain of accusatory rectum hook wants you to assume, ad populum, that a reasonable person (i.e., a caustic cynic) could not possibly believe whatever random post a manufacturer or rep happens to write. Thus, if Todd or Mr. Grado remarks that the HF-1 was created as a favor to Head-fi members, or that this particular limited-run headphone was not intended to make a profit, the OP!QT is quick to ask rhetorical questions, such as you don’t really expect us to believe that, do you?, or make dismissive statements using the royal we (as in oh, please!, we all know how a profitable business is run. . . . ). The OP!QT's swill is sometimes followed by the eye-rolling smiley, as if the original statement, not the response, were overtly suspect.

The inconsiderate response is then quoted and reiterated in later posts, even though the OP!QT had no access to the information -- let alone, knowledge of the first speaker’s personal intentions -- necessary to evaluate the manufacturer’s claim.

The end result of quasi-trolling is hardly ever positive, since the complaints are too generalized, subjective, unsubstantiated or trivial to require action. They often result in fewer perks and less good will for members in the future. Think of it this way: If someone offered to put up a few hundred members at a hotel for an extra night at her/his own expense, then it might discourage future offers if members who hadn't stayed at the hotel chose to make public protests questioning the motives of the benefactor or the quality of the bedding.

Even the responses to Todd in this thread have struck me as instances of muted trolling. If Todd is miffed at certain individuals for selling the HF-1 on eBay for $400, then what constructive reason is there for members to take the side of the sellers? Why resort to the red herring of identifying all members who bought the HF-1 with the few opportunists who chose to be greedy? Todd himself didn’t make that mistake, so why should you?

Jude frequently posts stickies in forums to explain some new restriction or rule. Often, he explains, the new development is the result of selfish behavior; we are made to understand that the behavior of the thoughtless few have resulted in greater restrictions for the many. Isn’t Todd saying the same thing? Isn’t he simply telling you that the possibility of an HF-2 is unlikely and then explaining who is at fault? How is it constructive to scold him for being "naïve" enough to have hoped for better from us?

Moderators have repeatedly closed threads when members made unsubstantiated statements about manufacturers or simply proved ungracious. It would be nice, I think, if certain members managed to stop themselves from being sufficiently ungracious to pollute another thread. I suppose I could be called naïve for expecting civil behavior on the In-ter-net, but you'll have to excuse me (cue patriotic music). After all, I'm gullible enough to think my friends and community are capable of thinking before spewing.
 

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