[sunjam]

While not an absolute, you might say Os-Con are "digital and SMPS" Capacitors, while Silmic are "Audio" capacitors.

As a result ideally we would split up all PSU Pins on the DSD1793 and use 4 pcs of low dropout regulators, Vcc, VccR, VccR each would use 10nF C0G in 0603 + 10uF X7R or better in 1210 and Elna Silmic while VccF gets 1uF X7R in 0603 and the biggest Os-Con we can find.

TBH, I think this is overkill for a fairly low cost DAC IC and needs a PCB with more layers etc.

Perhaps, if I ever get to do another design with DSD1793 (unlikely) or similar, I'll break out VccF from the rest.

Cool, I really learned a lot from your posts. Thanks.

Sorry for my ignorance again, what's the reasons behind for having different types of capacitor in parallel (especially when the capacitances are quite different)? To be specific,

1. Why it is better to combine C0G / X7R and Elna Silmic (instead of just Elna Silmic as it has larger capacitance)? Why we still need C0G/X7R
2. Why it is better to combine 1uF X7R and OS-CON (instead of just OS-CON as it has larger capacitance, say 1000uF for VccF)? Why we still need X7R

If somehow I could disconnect the VccF pin of the DSD1793 from the PCB, does it make sense if I use "flying wire" to connect it to the capacitors you mentioned and then GND?

By looking at the datasheet again, looks like they have something similar (2 capacitors in parallel). This is something I don't understand.

By the way, for the electrolytic capacitors, I heard that it needs to take some time for the dielectric to be stabilized.

Here is what I got from my Sony Walkman's info screen:

For my "new" "signature plus" Zen DAC, do I need to age the capacitors (i.e. Elna Slimic) in order to get the highest quality sound? 200 hours too?

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Sorry for my ignorance again, what's the reasons behind for having different types of capacitor in parallel (especially when the capacitances are quite different)? To be specific,

On a schematic a "capacitor" is ideal. A real capacitor has "parasitic" resistors and inductors included.

This means they do not "filter" as effective as an ideal capacitor, have losses and above a certain frequency they stop being capacitors and become the precise opposite of a capacitor, an inductor.

Also, they have further non-ideal charateristics that cause distortions.

As a rule, the more capacitance is packed into the same space, the less "ideal" a capacitor becomes.

The closest to ideal in some aspects is a vacuum capacitor. They are also huge for very small values:

This vacuum capacitor is 20cm long and weights 1.25kG. it's value is 0.0001uF.

So all practical capacitors are compromises. Different types, material, mechanical constructions etc. give different compromises and different optimisations.

Depending on application it may be possible/best to just use a single capacitor of a certain kind, or to combine multiple ones with different characteristics.

This must be done with care and understanding, doing it badly, wrongly or stupidly can make things worse, rather than better.

1. Why it is better to combine C0G / X7R and Elna Silmic (instead of just Elna Silmic as it has larger capacitance)? Why we still need C0G/X7R2

The DAC section is interesting in that it contains both high frequency switching (up to 50Mhz) and audio, which has quite different optimum capacitors. The above is a combo I developed and which you find on all Vcc pin's of the DSD1793 combined on the iDSD Pro.

. Why it is better to combine 1uF X7R and OS-CON (instead of just OS-CON as it has larger capacitance, say 1000uF for VccF)? Why we still need X7R

The "FF" stands for "Flip Flop", a specific logic device.

Decoding the "V" pins gives us:

V3V3 = 3.3V for diditsl logic, interface, digital filters etc. et al.

VccF = 5V logic supply

VccC = 5V for reference and current generators

VccL/R = 5V for L/R current switching and analogue circuitry

Vcom = decoupling for the DAC Analogue section Reference

If somehow I could disconnect the VccF pin of the DSD1793 from the PCB, does it make sense if I use "flying wire" to connect it to the capacitors you mentioned and then GND?

No, you really need to design a PCB dedicated to this.

By the way, for the electrolytic capacitors, I heard that it needs to take some time for the dielectric to be stabilized.

This is contentious subject.

As a rule, all new electronic parts will need some "burn in" time during which some of the parameters change more or less dramatically.

This of course can cause measurable and even audible changes. Note CAN!

To "objectivists" the very concept is an anathema and will be countered with "it's imaginary and if it is not it's bad design".

For my "new" "signature plus" Zen DAC, do I need to age the capacitors (i.e. Elna Slimic) in order to get the highest quality sound? 200 hours too?

Based on some reports, as much as 800 (search user technobear and "burn in")

Thor

 

[hatbox]

The following is part 2 of my work on Zen DAC V2...









Upgraded the capacitors to Panasonic OS-CON and ELNA SILMIC II. I think this should make it to become the Signature version.




Performance after the upgrade: it sounds much better than the original version. More details from bass to high. Overall, a good upgrade feel
Highly recommended as it only costs 4 Panasonic OS-CON and 2 ELNA capacitors. Yeah.

Hello! I wanted to clarify, did you use ELNA Silmic II 470uF-16V, 13x25mm (2), and 6SEPC470MX Aluminum Organic Polymer Capacitors 6.3volts 470uF ESR 8mohm (4) capacitors for the upgrade?
Can ELNA Silmic II be replaced with Nichicon FG 470uF-16V or Nichicon KZ 470uF-25V, and will this be a good upgrade?
I would also like to know the opinion of the respected Thorsten on this matter.

 

[sunjam]

Hello! I wanted to clarify, did you use ELNA Silmic II 470uF-16V, 13x25mm (2), and 6SEPC470MX Aluminum Organic Polymer Capacitors 6.3volts 470uF ESR 8mohm (4) capacitors for the upgrade?
Can ELNA Silmic II be replaced with Nichicon FG 470uF-16V or Nichicon KZ 470uF-25V, and will this be a good upgrade?
I would also like to know the opinion of the respected Thorsten on this matter.

Yes, its Elna Silmic II 470uF/16V and 6SEPC470MX. For the Silmic, you can use 6.3V but I cannot find it so I bought the 16V

I used Elna Silmic because the offical signature use it. My original plan was to upgrade my V2 to Signature but now I am planning to make it to Signature Plus as Thor suggested. For Nichicon, I know they have good audio grade capacitors but I am not familiar with their products. I bet Thor probably know more why iFi pick Silmic.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Can ELNA Silmic II be replaced with Nichicon FG 470uF-16V or Nichicon KZ 470uF-25V, and will this be a good upgrade?

Make it KZ if Nichicon. Elna has EOL'd Silmic, so they are becoming extinct.

If you took Os-Con end to end I'd not cuss you either.

Thor

 

[hatbox]

Please forgive me for the noob questions, they relate to replacing capacitors. Due to the fact that not all items are available, is it possible to use 6SEPC560MW instead of Os-Con 6SEPC470MX? And is it possible to buy Silmic II brown and white instead of black and gold? The seller assures that the brown and white one is original from Japan.

 

[sunjam]

Please forgive me for the noob questions, they relate to replacing capacitors. Due to the fact that not all items are available, is it possible to use 6SEPC560MW instead of Os-Con 6SEPC470MX? And is it possible to buy Silmic II brown and white instead of black and gold? The seller assures that the brown and white one is original from Japan.

All the OS-CONs are for power supplies, using 560uF (instead of 460uF) is ok. I would try 1000uF if I knew earlier it could be larger.

Thor mentioned (as shown below) that we can try larger values (uF) for C411. It should be similar for C101, C201, C321, and C410

Panasonic SMD Film is better, but is is not possible to fit it. You can try larger values, os-con, silmic, they all sound subtly different.

For C507,C508, I think we should keep the same uF.

For the Silmic II, I have no idea about brown/white and black/gold. Do they have the same parts number?

 

[sunjam]

Please forgive me for the noob questions, they relate to replacing capacitors. Due to the fact that not all items are available, is it possible to use 6SEPC560MW instead of Os-Con 6SEPC470MX? And is it possible to buy Silmic II brown and white instead of black and gold? The seller assures that the brown and white one is original from Japan.

More info can be found here about brown/white and black/gold Silmic: Counterfeit ELNA Silmic II or genuine Elna ??? | diyAudio

 

[hatbox]

More info can be found here about brown/white and black/gold Silmic: Counterfeit ELNA Silmic II or genuine Elna ??? | diyAudio

Many thanks to sunjam and Thorsten Loesch for the information and help. The capacitors have been ordered, I plan to receive them and upgrade my ZenDac by mid-June.

 

[Nkam]

More info can be found here about brown/white and black/gold Silmic: Counterfeit ELNA Silmic II or genuine Elna ??? | diyAudio

Pardon, but do you also have the zen can?

Or all this work is being done on your zen DAC?

Good work btw

 

[sunjam]

Pardon, but do you also have the zen can?

Or all this work is being done on your zen DAC?

Good work btw

Thanks, I only have the Zen DAC v2.

 

[lantian]

Please forgive me for the noob questions, they relate to replacing capacitors. Due to the fact that not all items are available, is it possible to use 6SEPC560MW instead of Os-Con 6SEPC470MX? And is it possible to buy Silmic II brown and white instead of black and gold? The seller assures that the brown and white one is original from Japan.

When these are power supply capacitors you can always go higher capacity. The results will be smother power delivery. Most cases doubling has some sonic benefits, though physical size might become a constraint at that point. Only if the capacitor is part of audio filter circuit, eq or feedback should the capacity be kept the same.
Voltage can always be increased, the capacitor will only charge as much as the the circuit supplies.
Would recommend going all silmics if possible or perhaps a mix of silmics and some nichikon fg. Or if price no object get the best there is audio note kasei.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Would recommend going all silmics if possible or perhaps a mix of silmics and some nichikon fg.

Neither of these are appropriate for digital / switching power circuits.

Or if price no object get the best there is audio note kasei.

No comment on these, no experience.

As a rule, for digital & switching supplies, Os-Con (Panasonic ex Sanyo), X7R or C0G SMD

For audio power supplies Silmic, Nichocon Muse KG/KZ, then FG etc. SMD Panasonic ECPU and C0G

For audio coupling, Nichicon Muse ES, Elna Silmic Bipolar (if you can find genuine ones), WIMA MPK & FKP or equivalent. Panasonic ECPU and similar or C0G ceramic for SMD.

For EQ/Timing Polystyrene, C0G ceramic, WIMA FKP or similar.

Avoid at all cost "audiophile film capacitors" of the "rolled up" type without being epoxy resin potted in a case. That is most of them.

Avoid overpriced Audiophile parts sold with hype and questionable science. If you cannot understand why they should be better than quality generica, the people writing the material either don't speak English, don't understand the subject matter or are lying.

If a capacitor lowers distortion, it can be measured and the reasons can be explained. If a capacitor has low microphonics, losses etc. all this can be quantified and measured and explained.

Parts can make more or less big differences, but it's all in the realm of electronic and material science etc. Which is also why there is no universally "best" part, only the best compromise in a specific applications.

Avoid parts from sellers on ebay, AliExpress, Taobao eyc, they are almost always fakes. If you must buy that way in est in a good component tester, test and at the slightest indication of something not 100% pukka send the items back. You will do that in nine out of ten or more cases, so consider avoiding the grief. I mostly use Mouser.

Club together if shipping is expensive.

MIC = avoid or pay minimum

MIJ = check it is really MIJ, not MIC relabelled. If real MIJ, worth a premium

MIEU = check it is really MIEU, not MIC relabelled. If real MIEU, worth a premium over MIJ

Thor

 

[Nkam]

Yeah Audio Note is pure snake oil.

Way over priced stuff, which claims that they do research etc…but ironically enough they never print white papers or quantitative results of their technology or parts or whatever they make.

E.g. they make these capacitors and give all this jargon on why they are so good. But then never put any metrics of why they are so good. Makes zero sense.
Thus snake oil.

 

[Nkam]

I’m still confused on what to use for my Zen Can Sig for power

The Zen can has circuitry onboard That lowers noise from a power supply.

So if we use pretty much any power supply with good current and a capacitor bank, won’t the capacitor bank condition the power to eliminate most of the noise and EMI?

Do we ‘ need’ to get a linear power supply?

Posting here in case others have the same question.

Cheers