Super (capacitor) charging your iFi Zen Can (and other zen products and possibly other manufacturers)

[Nkam]

It should not have sounded different unless pushed with low impedance headphones.



OPA1644



Find out.

Thor

Ifi says they use ov2637a on the Zen Can Sig . Is that just a rebranded OPA1679?



Thanks.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Ifi says they use ov2637a on the Zen Can Sig . Is that just a rebranded OPA1679?

Yes.

Thor

 

[Nkam]

Yes.

Thor

Well OPA1644 does have a much higher slew rate.

Is it that much better than the one currently in the amp? ( OPA1679)

Swapping opamps is all the rage now. Just wondering if it would make that much of a difference. Most say switching opamps doesn’t make much of a difference.

Thanks Thor!

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Well OPA1644 does have a much higher slew rate.

Is it that much better than the one currently in the amp? ( OPA1679)

The differences are small. Personally I prefer OPA1644.

Swapping opamps is all the rage now.

Has been for a long time.

https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cd67.html

Just wondering if it would make that much of a difference. Most say switching opamps doesn’t make much of a difference.

OPA1679 which is a less comprehensively tested OPA1654 vs OPA1644 is modest.

OPA164x uses J-Fet inputs and bipolar transistors for the rest. It uses a classic differential pair with current mirror loading. It is a classic design, modernized and very high performance.

OPA165x is a super modern design, all MOSFET, folded cascode input, super modern and very high performance.

There is a difference in sound, I'd call the sound of the OPA1644 "expensive sound" while the OPA1654 offers an "exciting sound".

But it's a small difference. My own Zen Sig stack still runs 1679/54.

Thor

PS, if you want the equivalent of the Zen Can, but build up to a higher standard, as DIY project, with options for discrete Op-Amp's on Studio Standard footprint, RK-27 Volume as standard, Elma mechanical input selector, more inputs, doubled up output stage with TO-220 outputs on heatsinks for more Class A, space for up to three different EQ modules, designed to fit a specific AliExpress enclosure, with an option to house a Rod Rain DAC PCB, I'd be open to a small side project as a group buy.

In principle, the first round of PCB's could be fully made in China, assembled (JLCPCB), tested and shipped out as "Semi Kit" (all items that come from China) from the testing location. BUT, I'm not set-up for this kind of stuff and fairly busy. So ideally someone else would deal with the manufacturing/testing etc. side.

Then I'd also be open to do a matching DAC based around the Zen Design, but with more DAC Chips (say 8pcs, so we to iDSD Pro) and using commercial (Amanero compatible) USB. Add SPDIF and BT as well.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

I'd be open to a small side project as a group buy.

PS, let's also go wall to wall Supercapacitor power supplies and use USB-C PD as power source, with all the various trick's iFi sells as a separate device, so anyone can just attach a 60W+ USB-C power brick for the PSU and be running.

Thor

 

[sunjam]

PS, let's also go wall to wall Supercapacitor power supplies and use USB-C PD as power source, with all the various trick's iFi sells as a separate device, so anyone can just attach a 60W+ USB-C power brick for the PSU and be running.

Thor

USB-C PD is good enough?

Is it for Zen Can Signature only (as it has internal switiching power supply)?
For Zen DAC, I bet LPS is still preferred over USB-C PD. Correct?

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

USB-C PD is good enough?

No. Not without a lot of extra help.

Is it for Zen Can Signature only (as it has internal switiching power supply)?

No, it would be a DIY project based on a lot of the Zen Series, but maxed out without any restrictions on size, weight, budget.

For Zen DAC, I bet LPS is still preferred over USB-C PD. Correct?

For Zen LPS is preferred for all units.

Thor

 

[firider]

In desktop or big hifi products we can simply enlarge the values, making everything physically larger (and heavier and more expensive). In portable gear this is an issue, as usually we cannot.

So audio peak current needs to be supplied by the battery. The problem is that the chemistry in batteries is pretty lazy. So the battery is slow to ramp up current.

Meanwhile the step-up power supply that supplies the whole device (3.0V-4.2V battery to 5V or 5.7V for audio) will try to draw more current, you get an avalanche condition where peak power is limited by the slow battery chemistry and the battery voltage is being drawn lower and lower, until the battery shuts down.

So we need something that kind of "slots in" into the gap between moderate size electrolytic capacitors and battery or off mains supply.

Super Capacitors happen to be the answer. Of course, implementation is slightly non-trivial. You cannot just put them in parallel with a battery.

Hi Thorsten, I've been reading this thread with high interest (found it after I bought a ZEN CAN some weeks ago). Using a dead-cheap Amazon 5V-6A SMPS already brought a definite improvement, so I want to go further along the recommendations made here and add supercaps. But my question is somewhat different - Is it possible, and a good idea, to feed the CAN from battery power (5V power bank(s)), combined with supercaps? Background is that it would allow to make my headphone setup mains-independent, thus (with limits) portable/movable. Your comment I quote from above seems to suggest the opposite, but I'd like to understand more about pro's/con's and do's/don't's before I move on.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Is it possible, and a good idea, to feed the CAN from battery power (5V power bank(s)), combined with supercaps?

5V power bank = 3.7V battery with a cheap switcher to make 5V.

You can do it, but there is no real improvement over a cheap SMPS - except if you disconnect mains completely, but that needs a VERY BIG battery bank. It also needs to be able to supply ~4...5A peaks at 5V, which is is outside USB PD specification.

Those I commonly use are rated 10kmAh (3.7V) or 37Wh with 5V/3A maximum. The consumption of the Zen Can Idle is are around 2A or 10W(h), so you can run the Zen Can for less than 4 Hours.

So you will likely need one of those monster banks (100Wh/27,000mAh) that are the size of a brick and can run laptops for a few hours.

Seems a lot of expense and inconvenience for little gain.

There is a reason why ifi's portable devices use either MAX97220 (even multiple ones draw little power, the whole HP Amp section for the Gryphon with 4 of them and extra Op-Amp's only draws 270mW continuous) or TPA6120 with variable power supplies (the whole iDSD micro Black Label/Finale only draws ~500mA in eco mode - or 0.25W(h) idle.

Incidentally, for example here:

Capacitor Power Filter Module, Aluminum Alloy Capacitor Filter Voltage Indicator, 5V 20F Interface Power Filter Module for DC5V Brand: Zixyqol

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hifi-power-supply/jack-dc-5v-filter-p-19072.html

Is a simple OTS supercapacitor power module, that seem decent enough:

Looks like it could be upgraded to 30F from 20F as now (looks like 4 X 20F/2.7V CDA brand).

This would work for both Zen DAC & Zen CAN.

Thor

 

[Nkam]

The differences are small. Personally I prefer OPA1644.



Has been for a long time.

https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cd67.html



OPA1679 which is a less comprehensively tested OPA1654 vs OPA1644 is modest.

OPA164x uses J-Fet inputs and bipolar transistors for the rest. It uses a classic differential pair with current mirror loading. It is a classic design, modernized and very high performance.

OPA165x is a super modern design, all MOSFET, folded cascode input, super modern and very high performance.

There is a difference in sound, I'd call the sound of the OPA1644 "expensive sound" while the OPA1654 offers an "exciting sound".

But it's a small difference. My own Zen Sig stack still runs 1679/54.

Thor

PS, if you want the equivalent of the Zen Can, but build up to a higher standard, as DIY project, with options for discrete Op-Amp's on Studio Standard footprint, RK-27 Volume as standard, Elma mechanical input selector, more inputs, doubled up output stage with TO-220 outputs on heatsinks for more Class A, space for up to three different EQ modules, designed to fit a specific AliExpress enclosure, with an option to house a Rod Rain DAC PCB, I'd be open to a small side project as a group buy.

In principle, the first round of PCB's could be fully made in China, assembled (JLCPCB), tested and shipped out as "Semi Kit" (all items that come from China) from the testing location. BUT, I'm not set-up for this kind of stuff and fairly busy. So ideally someone else would deal with the manufacturing/testing etc. side.

Then I'd also be open to do a matching DAC based around the Zen Design, but with more DAC Chips (say 8pcs, so we to iDSD Pro) and using commercial (Amanero compatible) USB. Add SPDIF and BT as well.

I don’t know about here. But one Superbestaudiofriends that might be something they would find attractive.

 

[Nkam]

Hi Thorsten, I've been reading this thread with high interest (found it after I bought a ZEN CAN some weeks ago). Using a dead-cheap Amazon 5V-6A SMPS already brought a definite improvement, so I want to go further along the recommendations made here and add supercaps. But my question is somewhat different - Is it possible, and a good idea, to feed the CAN from battery power (5V power bank(s)), combined with supercaps? Background is that it would allow to make my headphone setup mains-independent, thus (with limits) portable/movable. Your comment I quote from above seems to suggest the opposite, but I'd like to understand more about pro's/con's and do's/don't's before I move on.

Which one was it if you can send a link please.

@Thorsten Loesch , will a cheap SMPS work well without adding noise since internally there is a switcher as well?

We really need to find a good cheap SMPS will higher amps

Thanks

 

[farits]

As an experiment, I connected Zen can

 

[firider]

Which one was it if you can send a link please.

This one: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07P8HKFLL?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1, 15€. Amazon also name it Velain, a name which has been quoted in this discussion, long time ago.

 

[Nkam]

This one: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07P8HKFLL?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1, 15€. Amazon also name it Velain, a name which has been quoted in this discussion, long time ago.

Thanks man.

Do you have the regular IpowerX with your zen can?

What improvement did you find with the new PSU?

Thanks

 

[firider]

5V power bank = 3.7V battery with a cheap switcher to make 5V.

You can do it, but there is no real improvement over a cheap SMPS - except if you disconnect mains completely, but that needs a VERY BIG battery bank. It also needs to be able to supply ~4...5A peaks at 5V, which is is outside USB PD specification.

Those I commonly use are rated 10kmAh (3.7V) or 37Wh with 5V/3A maximum. The consumption of the Zen Can Idle is are around 2A or 10W(h), so you can run the Zen Can for less than 4 Hours.

So you will likely need one of those monster banks (100Wh/27,000mAh) that are the size of a brick and can run laptops for a few hours.



Seems a lot of expense and inconvenience for little gain.

There is a reason why ifi's portable devices use either MAX97220 (even multiple ones draw little power, the whole HP Amp section for the Gryphon with 4 of them and extra Op-Amp's only draws 270mW continuous) or TPA6120 with variable power supplies (the whole iDSD micro Black Label/Finale only draws ~500mA in eco mode - or 0.25W(h) idle.

Incidentally, for example here:

Capacitor Power Filter Module, Aluminum Alloy Capacitor Filter Voltage Indicator, 5V 20F Interface Power Filter Module for DC5V Brand: Zixyqol

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hifi-power-supply/jack-dc-5v-filter-p-19072.html

Is a simple OTS supercapacitor power module, that seem decent enough:



Looks like it could be upgraded to 30F from 20F as now (looks like 4 X 20F/2.7V CDA brand).

This would work for both Zen DAC & Zen CAN.

Thor

Many thanks, Thorsten . I DO understand that this would not be a setup that is efficient by any means, but it matches my use case of being able to sit/ly at any place in the house without needing a power socket. The Capacitor Power Filter Module you list I found yesterday on Ali, and is already on its way to me . But the question I didn't find an answer on (hope I didn't overlook) remains: does it make sense/is it ok to use supercaps fed by one (or more in parallel) power bank(s)?