[Jetlag]

Thanks, good to hear (no pun intended).

No kidding about the sensitivity of the 10s and their ability to reveal any noise in a system. I can hear the hard drive spin up on my Karma through them. I even swapped out some interconnects because of them. It turns out that one had a small short in it which had gone undetected until I plugged the 10s into my receiver.

As I usually NEVER listen above volume level 6 on the Karma, the news of the potentiometer choice is great. I guess I will hold onto my place in the Hornet line for now. Just hope that when D-Day gets here (or would that be H-Day?), I have enough cash to pay for it.

Thanks again!

Oh, one more question: Was there any talk from Ray or Tyll about a new AMP+DAC in a single portable box in the near future? A follow-on to the Bithead, etc?

 

[brianknewbie]

first -- a warning, long post

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L Was there any more comparisons of DAC1 to EA modded DAC1, and stock transit to EA modded Transit on Sunday?

Not really the "official" comparisons I was looking forward to -- I was too busy with everything else anyway

My main concern was whether Steve @ Empirical Audio had done everything stated as part of the modifications and whether this was work was done professionally. Steve seemed legit, but there was still a small amount of doubt lingering from my own unfamiliarity with the nature of the mods and how amps and DACs work overall.

Edwood, who obviously knows much MUCH more about all this than I do, opened up both the Offramp Turbo (modded Transit) and turbomodded Benchmark DAC1, and showed me where all the modifications were and what changes had been made. He seemed to be impressed with both the Offramp Turbo and turbomodded Benchmark DAC1. Basically he said it was very thorough and overall an excellent job. For example, was amazed that Steve had taken the time to sand all the names off all the diodes etc that were used. (Ray said he does the same thing with his amps -- basically that it takes a LOT of time to figure out exactly what parts have the best synergy with everything else, and the designer has every right to protect the intellectual property in the amount of time he has invested in this as part of developing a product). Overall, he said that there was a LOT of labor that went into everything and that the mods looked to all be done with a specific intent & design in mind.


Whether these mods have any result on the sound is a separate matter than verifying that the actual mod work was done. In listening through just the headphone amps of each, Ed said he couldnt tell much of a difference -- not sure if he did additional analysis after that. I'd rather compare using an external amp because I think the built-in amp is only on par with maybe a $300 standalone amp, but maybe such comparisons are possible even with that bottleneck?

Basically it comes down to whether you think modifications like this are done with:
actual intent and actual results
-or-
just snake oil trying to rip people off. This is understandable suspicion since it is so expensive.

I can tell from Edwood's reaction to the work that the intent is legit, and from looking at Empirical Audio site, there are DACs that both a) cost a lot more than the DAC1 new, b) Steve charges a lot more to modify. But on his website Steve has the highest praise for DAC1:
Quote:

A Benchmark DAC-1 with Turbomod and Op-amp replacement actually outperforms our reference, the P-3A, when in balanced mode. The most clear and holographic soundstage we have ever heard from any DAC.

And it is only one of a few that he calls "Turbomodded" which means that he feels it truly performs at reference level after modding.

There are some other interesting thngs about his list of mods -- there are other DACs that he charges more to mod but straight out says it doesnt sound as good as modded DAC1 (less expensive) -- also for modded ack! Dack! that $600 in mods (total price with stock unit $800 = $1400) he says it comes very close to the modded DAC1 ($2200 for stock + mods ) and P3A ($3k for stock+mods). So honesty like this was part of what made me respect Empirical Audio without hearing any of their work beforehand.

For me, I'm still a newbie and dont have the benefit of being able to compare vast amounts of equipment, either ABx or from memory of what I've heard before, so I have to rely on statements like this from Steve calling it his favorite DAC, from reading testimonals etc and then deciding how qualified the person is to decide that, and to determine any motivation or bias (either financially motiviated or just personal placebo-effect induced by not wanting to admit they wasted $$).

It's the same reason why I appreciate opinions from people like Edwood because he does know what he is talking about.

Anyway, if Edwood wants to correct or clarify any of these impressions, he can of course expand on any of this himself.

Basically I'm happy with my system now after having already bought these -- and so it's less of interest for me to compare vs. stock just to retroactively decide if I should feel it was cost-effective or not.

... However, for anyone considering the mod, it's obviously not just academic and they'd have more practical interest in this. I'm of course willing to bring the turbomodded DAC1 over for another meet/mini-meet/whatever, no problem.

(hey I said it was going to be long...)

 

[Jon L]

Brian, there will no doubt be readers who read this thread and go, "that Empirical mod must be snake-oil b/c several people said they couldn't tell much difference."

I also reported that I couldn't detect huge differences ( I heard some), but that does not mean the modded DAC1 doesn't improve a great deal upon stock. I just think, still, that one needs a good speaker system in quiet environment to appreciate certain things that great DAC's do. One thing that happens when more of original info is passed along is expansion of 3-D soundstage with very specific/solid imaging of center as well as background instruments/vocals. Each of these instruments should become more 3-D and placed precisely in space that has front-to-back, side-to-side, and top-to-bottom clarity. This stuff is much easier to hear with speakers, and even though I'm not a soundstage-freak like some audiophiles, correct 3-D imaging does wonders for other things as well.

I can say this with some confidence b/c I've had the opportunity to compare stock Perpetual P3A DAC to Empirical P3A in a good speaker system, as well as Modwright P3A, and the differences were NOT subtle, EA P3A clearly being more resolute, musical, authoritative, and layered.

There's a So Cal audio group at Audiocircle who meet frequently to audition gears over speakers, and I hope to get your Turbomod Transit, DAC-1, and hopefully a stock DAC-1 there some time. If not, you and Ferbose can always bring your DAC-1's to my home to audition over my speaker setup.

 

[brianknewbie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L I can say this with some confidence b/c I've had the opportunity to compare stock Perpetual P3A DAC to Empirical P3A in a good speaker system, as well as Modwright P3A, and the differences were NOT subtle, EA P3A clearly being more resolute, musical, authoritative, and layered.

Awesome, good to know! For what it's worth, Empirical says turbomodded DAC1 is the only DAC he prefers to the modded P3A.

Quote:

There's a So Cal audio group at Audiocircle who meet frequently to audition gears over speakers, and I hope to get your Turbomod Transit, DAC-1, and hopefully a stock DAC-1 there some time. If not, you and Ferbose can always bring your DAC-1's to my home to audition over my speaker setup.

Any time, just let me know, that sounds like fun!

 

[Ferbose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L If not, you and Ferbose can always bring your DAC-1's to my home to audition over my speaker setup.

I have stock DAC1 and Transit, and if there is a mini-meet I would gladly bring my stuff over.

 

[mustang]

Wow what a meet. I have to echo the impressions and thank you's expressed by fellow head fiers. Thank you LFF and Edwood for organizing the meet. I got the chance to meet Ray Samuels and Tyll of Headroom and there are wonderful people who I wouldn't hesitate at all to do business with. I got a chance to chat with BRBJackson about the Sik-Din--I think that I may have to get one of those

I was amazed by the SR-71 but then again, I haven't heard a lot of upper end equipment. I found it fairly difficult to differentiate between the Hornet and the SR-71. Perhaps the highs were a bit harser on the former but the bass and dark sound sealed the deal for me on the SR-71. I do find it amazing however how Ray managed to build an amp a little bigger than the iPod that competes with some of the big name home amps. I though the SR71 was small when I saw it...can't imagine how the hornet will be. Once again, thanks a lot guys and hopefully we'll see each other next year.

 

[ivandal]

Ok, here is my review.
I only made it out on Sunday (prior engagement on Saturday), but there was plenty of equipment to keep me busy.

First thing that I got my ears on were the rs stealth and the rs raptor w/ my 880s. Both of these sounded quite nice w/ these cans off of the mer508. I think that the very layed back style of the 880s meshed very well w/ the classic tube style of the 2 amps and that the raptors slight aggression was a very good match w/ my style of liking my home listening style to be very calm and relaxed but still gave it that little pep in the highs that allows vocals to shine and the music to be not overly analytical.

After that, I got to try the little wunderkind that I had heard so much about, the hornet. I used it w/ what I currently use as my portables (the dt880s and the 770pros) as well as w/ what I am planning on purchasing later this week, the s.fi 5eb. My h320 was the source both times. The hornet felt a bit too forward relative to my sr-71 (in this case I used rays b/c I didn’t bring mine) on the 880s, but the fact it had the high gain switch allowed it to give me a lot more volume control and that was very nice. With the 770s the feature that the 770s are known for showed its head w/out killing off the vocals to a better degree than the sr71 allowed. I’m not sure if this is due to the greater amount of control of the volume or not though. Overall I left feeling that the hornet was a surprisingly nice competitor to the sr71 considering its performance and the decrease in price relative to the sr.

W/ the 5ebs, I found that the hornet’s brighter top end was a very nice complement to the BASS IN YO FACE!!!!! style of the eb’s and that it fit what I was looking for in my iec setup perfectly.

The sa5ks reminded me a bit of the cd3ks in there very analytical sound when I used them on brains amp, but from what ppl are saying regarding its meshing w/ the ppx3 I will wait to reserve any judgment on them.

The final thing I spent some time w/ was brian’s balanced ps-1s and his balanced Gilmore. This rig w/ his transit and dac-1 has made me reconsider the top end grados. The bass meshed very well w/ the aggressive style of certain music and although I don’t see myself getting a new set of grados (except maybe the rs-2s) anytime soon, it defiantly made me appreciate them a lot more. This rig also may have doomed my wallet to a wretched fate of balanced headphones and amps…..


Anyway, I’d just like to add that it was a great meet. I enjoyed chatting w/ mike from ue (great guy), ray, and all the head-fi members I met. Thanks to LFF, his boss for letting us use the rooms, Ed, and all the others involved in allowing this to occur.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

While I spent almost the entire meet talking to the various folks who attended, I did manage to make a couple of notes:

1. UE Super Fi 5 Pro - made me think that something other than a custom IEM could atcually sound pretty good. With a little work on getting the right sized ear tips I would happily live with these IEM.

2. UE Super FI 5EB - the only cans in the world that can make the Beyer 770 sound thin in the bass! These things bring out bass impact and depth like nothing you've ever heard before in your life. They were nothing short of amazing. At first blush they sound quite rolled-off, but that's completely due to the massive bass response these things have. (6dB of bass boost IIRC) I would own a pair of these just for the sheer fun factor alone. I laughed and smiled the entire time I listened to these little bass wonders.

3. Sony SA5000 - definitely not for me. With a Meridian 508-24, RSA Stealth, and the SA5K this was the brightest combo I've ever heard in my life. One cymbal clash I've heard hundreds of times before almost made me rip these cans off my head out of pain. When used with the Sony 555ES and a PPX3 it was much more bearable, but the lows were lean and the vocals sounded just wrong to me. It may just take some time to adjust myself to these cans, but the first two impressions didn't leave the best flavor lingering behind.

4. Beyer DT990 - first time I ever heard these cans, and I was quite impressed with them. David, AugustWest, was kind enough to let me listen to his pair on my rig, and I was intrigued enough to have a desire to spend more time listening to them. Superb bass response that was quite deep and punchy, without making the music sound rolled-off.

I walked away with one main item reinforced in my mind: I love my rig, and won't be making any upgrades to it any time soon. The CDP will be changed so I can have HDCD capability, and not for a better sound.b I can, and do, spend hour after hour of listening pleasure enjoying what's coming out of my headphones, and after sampling a few other items I can say I've assembled what is, to my ears, the best sounding rig I can afford.

 

[ivandal]

where are the day 2 photos?

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L Brian, there will no doubt be readers who read this thread and go, "that Empirical mod must be snake-oil b/c several people said they couldn't tell much difference." I also reported that I couldn't detect huge differences ( I heard some), but that does not mean the modded DAC1 doesn't improve a great deal upon stock.

Jon - I hate to break-into your great conversation, but I think some clarification is in order here. According to my records Brians DAC-1 did NOT have the Headphone amp modified. This is an optional mod, and incidently will not sound as good as the other outputs even if it is modded. Listening to the Phone plug outputs will not give you the benefit of the mods.

Brian's DAC-1 should be used from the RCA or XLR outs and bypassing the volume control to hear the benefits of the mods. The mods are probably more obvious with a speaker system than through headphones. Most customers have described the difference of modded versus unmodded as "night-and-day".

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[ivandal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioengr Jon - I hate to break-into your great conversation, but I think some clarification is in order here. According to my records Brians DAC-1 did NOT have the Headphone amp modified. This is an optional mod, and incidently will not sound as good as the other outputs even if it is modded. Listening to the Phone plug outputs will not give you the benefit of the mods. Brian's DAC-1 should be used from the RCA or XLR outs and bypassing the volume control to hear the benefits of the mods. The mods are probably more obvious with a speaker system than through headphones. Most customers have described the difference of modded versus unmodded as "night-and-day". Steve N. Empirical Audio

this is true, I was there when we "cracked it open" so to speak, and the headamp portion was unmoddified. Although I'd guess the ps mods would help the headamp but not to a large audible level.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

I had an idea about setup for future meets: arriving the day before for setting up tubed gear for warm-up. Some tube gear can take a day or so to fully warm-up and sound its best, and it would be nice to try and arrange a setup time the day before the meet where any of the local people can come, setup their rig, and leave it running through the night.

 

[LFF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ServinginEcuador I had an idea about setup for future meets: arriving the day before for setting up tubed gear for warm-up. Some tube gear can take a day or so to fully warm-up and sound its best, and it would be nice to try and arrange a setup time the day before the meet where any of the local people can come, setup their rig, and leave it running through the night.

I can vouch for this. Next time I would have no problem doing this - everything could get set up Friday night for enjoyment on Saturday - provided its a secure location.

Another thing I would recommend is a list of equipment per person. We had quite a bit of stuff that was left behind both days.

A before and after check list for each day would be best I think for each person that way everyone leaves with thier things.

 

[Edwood]

More Pics.

Tyll shows Brianknewbie some Headroom Amp boards.

It's big, it's bad, it's big! And you can get it inside a Headroom Balanced Max.

It's big, it's bad, it's big!

LFF likes it.

 

[Edwood]

Millet meets the Mullet

My Gear

Headamp Balanced Gilmore Reference Innards

Benchmark DAC1 innards Empirical Audio Modded

-Ed