[Vertigo-1]

For crying out loud kelly, just go those mods done and leave us Sugden owners in peace.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by fiddler Jeez Kelly.. you seem to be so convinced that the Sugden is bright without even hearing it! I believe KurtW posted a while back that he thought the Corda was brighter than the Sugden. And everybody else who's commented on it so far say it's not bright... What makes you think it is?

Fiddler - I make no claims whatsoever about something I haven't heard. I'm not suggesting it is bright, I'm taking a survey. Believe me, I've talked to Kurt about the Corda and the Sugden.

As much as I think of Kurt, I also have a lot of respect for some of the other people here and a few of them did characterize the amp as bright. Crescendopower thought the amp was unlistenably bright and brighter than the MID (which I own and think is brighter than neutral). The consensus of some of the feedback on the amp from a year ago on HeadWize seems to be that the amp was bright but the consensus from recent HeadFi posts (Joe and Kurt inclusive) seems to be the amp is neutral.

I certainly mean no disrespect when I ask for qualification over something somewhat controversial. Since we're not dealing with measurements, we're talking about something that is subjectively influenced and very relative. Joe's comments about the Earmax Pro being on the dark side, for example, was really useful--even though I haven't heard the EMP yet. It's always better, IMO, to find comparrisons to things I am familliar with, when I can get them.

I was also kind of hoping the other people who thought the amp was bright would post about that here and I could try to see where people were coming from. As always, I think people tend toward a slight bias toward products they own and like. I don't mean that in an insulting way, it's really just a byproduct of enthusiasm. I'm at a stage where nothing I buy is considered permanent yet (I tend to buy things to try them and sell when I've figured out whether I can find the products strengths in another component while simultaneously solving some weaknesses). This doesn't make me immune to bias, mind you, just a little less succeptible to that variety.

The newer owners of the Sugden on HeadFi are very enthusiastic about finding a good amp--and I don't doubt them when they say its good or that they're enjoying it, I'm just trying to nail down the specifics. A similar scenario happened with the W2002, which everyone almost hunanemously loved--and even I loved it, but it ultimately wasn't the sound I was looking for, so I sold it after I personally disected its sonic signature. I enjoy that process, but it is time consuming and (more importantly) can be expensive so I kind of have to pick my battles. If I can somehow edge the Sugden off my list before buying it, it'd save me some money.

And yes, this is all very worthwhile to me.

 

[flashbak]

Kelly,
Jeeze, give it up will you! You seem to be on some kind of crusade with regard to the Headmaster being bright! This issue with the Headmaster is quickly becoming stale. Just remove it from your list since your already convinced it's too bright for you.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Out of all the headphone amps you have heard, which one is the brightest?

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by flashbak Kelly, Jeeze, give it up will you! Stop trying to convince people that an amplifier that you've personally never heard is bright sounding! Exactly how long would you like to continue prolonging this inaccurate information!

Um, read much?

 

[Vertigo-1]

That honor would go to the MF Xcans V2.

 

[flashbak]

Um, listen much?

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

For those that have heard both of these amps, which one is brighter?

 

[Vertigo-1]

The Sugden portrays a further treble extension than the MID. But it does not translate into "brighter". The Sugden provides a smooth metallic sheen to the crash of cymbals that I found missing on the MID, and on all the other amps I've heard for that matter. This metallic sheen I feel is important to the realism of cymbals, and cymbals are probably my favorite instrument to listen to (particularly important to the PRAT of the music I feel). If you're wondering why I've deliberately looked for bright equipment for the past year, it was to chase after the perfection of this one area of music in all things headphone. If one wants perfect cymbal reproduction, I think it makes sense to start off by sampling certain equipment known for great treble attack. By all means, I wouldn't want brightness in any other area of my music, it'd make for quite a sibilant hell, given I listen to a lot of Asian pop vocals. But people still like to label me as a "bright" listener I guess. Oh well, I know what I'm looking for, and I think I got it with the Sugden.

 

[kelly]

Vert,

(We talked about this a little already but just to open the discussion to others...) What troubles me about your impression of the MID is that, in my opinion, the MID has a fantastic attack--the absolute best I've heard in a headphone amp and one of the best I've heard of any amp. The cymbal sounds fantastic when it's first hit. What's missing on the stock MID is the decay. The cymbal sounds extremely realistic but then sounds like the drummer had grabbed it with a cloth to silence it rather than letting it fade into the blackness.

According to my new friend, Moo...

the revision A mods vastly improve the blackness and according to Steve McCormack, the texture and cohesion of the midrange is also improved which would, I think, account for some of that natural decay.

Now another amp Vertigo and I have both owned is his old and my current RKV. The RKV is on the opposite side of the MID with the cymbals - slow attack and excellent decay. It's not as accurate, IMO, but it's what a lot of people would find relaxing.

What I don't really agree with is wrapping the attack and treble extension together. The MID is, again all IMO, a little bit lacking in treble extension--seeming to be (from memory) closer to where the Max is. The truth is, even my little Corda offers more in the way of treble extension than the Max or the Corda (disclaimed: long term listening of the MOH pending), but despite this, I still find the MID to be brighter than te Corda. (So yes, I agree that extension does not always equal brightness.)

It would be important to me that we distinguish these three aspects individually -- attack, brightness and high frequency extension because although there are certainly trends, there is not a perfect correlation and many amps fall outside of the trend, especially as we enter in to higher end amps.

Flashbak, please go somewhere else if you don't have more to offer on this one than "is not!"

 

[RickG]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly What I don't really agree with is wrapping the attack and treble extension together.

I have to agree, Kelly. The Omega II's have the very finest presentation of cymbals I've ever heard.....and I own and have listened to a number of amps and phones. Heck, some people feel the Omega's are rolled off......that may be, but the cymbal resolution (Tony Williams with Miles, Herbie, and gang..) is scary. IMO, top end extension and resolution do not necessarily go hand in hand. Many other factors are involved.

 

[MooGoesTheCow]

I don't find the MID rolled off. At least, when I listened to the amps at the headroom meet and returned to my amp, it didn't seem rolled off in any way. Like Kelly said, this was with the Revision A upgrade, which added almost as much as a new Sugden to the cost.

The most natural sound with the best attack and decay was with the Orpheus -- as close to perfection as I've ever come across. The MID ain't an Orpheus, and I won't ever pretend it is, but it still remains an excellent headphone amp, and very competitive at its price. I'd love to hear the Sugden. It might change my opinion. If indeed it gives more treble extension without sibilance or brightness/fatigue than what I've heard, then it's something I may eventually look into.

For the record, I didn't find the 2001 Max rolled off, except in processor mode with brightness turned off (jude, you weirdo

) I DID find my old model Supreme rolled off, and not that great of an amp. But as Headroom was criticized about, they purposefully rolled off the highs to compensate for headphones ultra revealing nature. That has changed.

 

[Vertigo-1]

You could put it this way simply. None of the high end solid state headphone amps are bright. I've heard em all already. However the lower end solid state amps can have a tendency towards brightness...such as the Creek, or Corda. It's worth considering that if you're hearing brightness out of a high end solid state amp, you're probably hearing the amp reveal your recording, or your source, or your cables. Or maybe even consider your headphone as being inherently bright. I think my system is pretty well matched up right now, and I'm not getting any brightness.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by kwkarth Hi Joe, I had exactly the same experience with my CD-3000's when I got the Max. Up to that point, I loved my CD-3000's and when the Max arrived, they alone among all my headphones, became too bright to enjoy any longer. Since all my other headphones came alive with the Max, I have to conclude that it's not the Max that's too bright, (I finally got an amp that has flat response at high frequencies) but that the Sony's are too bright with that amp.

Substitute "Melos" for "Max", and I could have written this. The CD3K is a stunning headphone with my other amps, but doesn't interact well with the SHA-1. OTOH, it's my headphone of choice with the ZOTL (and the logical extension of that has got my wallet quivering in fear).

So, the "brightness" issue of the CD3K only appears to crop up in particular amps. I wonder if anyone with a Max or Melos does NOT not hear the CD3K as overly bright...

"There's something happening here,
what it is ain't exactly clear..."

 

[flashbak]

Kelly,
The bottom line is that you need to listen to this amp yourself. They'll always be conflicting opinions although Sugden owners have voiced a very cohesive opinion that the Headmaster's main characteristic is neutrality! You can continue to intellectualize this issue into the ground, but in the end it's how the amp pairs with your own individual hearing mechanism. The more your in this game the more you'll come to realize that there is really no right or wrong, just what sounds good to you the individual!