[tfarney]

Quote:

I thought the goal of audiophiles was to have music reproduced as accurately as possible;

It was once. Somewhere along the line, the goal for many audiophiles became tone.

Quote:

according to the charts (and my ears) this player is the equivalent of a photographer slapping vaseline on his lens in order to hide the wrinkles on a vain 60 year old (sure, the picture looks good, but you think it's a different person if you see them in the sunlight).

Isn't this exactly what some of the most expensive and highly-regarded audiophile components do (particularly DACs) when they add "warmth" or make digital sound "more analog?"

I think many audiophiles would call the brutal accuracy of a good studio monitoring system cold and clinical. It's a bit more truth than we care to hear. I'm not putting a PS1 in the same league with an audiphile DAC, by the way. But they seem to achieve much the same objective.

Tim

 

[dr.larkos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not putting a PS1 in the same league with an audiphile DAC, by the way. But they seem to achieve much the same objective. Tim

You can put it up there, believe me (and thousands more of bona fide adiophiles worldwire). I currently own a $5500 CD transport/DAC (have owned 4 other kilo$ high-end digital front ends, one of them still in my secondary system, all other gone) and I prefer the Playstation (stock, unmodified, just quality interconnects and a better power cord) for chamber & instrumental music (particularly, piano and strings), jazz, and vocalist (classic and pop). For major symphonic works it varies but usually I stay with the more expensive transport/Dac combination. Its relative greater resolution (24 bit 192Khz, upsampling) gives me a better perspective (imaging and detail) of all instruments in the sound stage. Otherwise, with the other music the difference in resolution is hardly an issue. The palpabilty (being there, in the same space with the performers) and the musicality of the Playstation makes it my favorite. By the way, I listen to speakers (strictly stereo)...as we all know, a completely different sonic endeavor and experience than listening through headphones. Perhaps the Playstation virtues are not so evident through headphones (??). Room generated sound anomalies are known to aggravate nasty artifacts that happen to be present in the digital music signal being reproduced. By cancelling out some of those digital artifacts, the PlayStation prevent room anomalies from aggravate them. Headphone listening avoid problems of room interaction altogether but, the truth should be said, while headphone listening is a convenience that could provide a pleasant experience, with a minuscule exception, all of the muisc out there was created to be listened in some type of auditorium for a full body experience, not just "in the head." As we all know, both, music reproduction through a quality system based on speakers or headphones constitute a compromise in the attempt to get close to the original musical event. Of course, the virtues of the PlayStation are not evident at all if it is connected to run of the mill TV or computer speakers (the way the PlayStation was originally intended to be used), which is what many guys out there are doing (after getting their old PlayStations from the bottom of a closet) and, then, bitch about the whole thing being total nonsense.

 

[Budgie]

I am constantly amazed by the number of people who can tell that the PS1 must sound terrible but don't even have one to try listening to.

Thats an amazing ability.

I had one once, or it's not high end, or its too cheap, does not add up to a legitimate reasons for me to doubt my own hearing, and I am using a PS1 and loving it.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budgie /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am constantly amazed by the number of people who can tell that the PS1 must sound terrible but don't even have one to try listening to. Thats an amazing ability. I had one once, or it's not high end, or its too cheap, does not add up to a legitimate reasons for me to doubt my own hearing, and I am using a PS1 and loving it.

That's a fair point; I totally agree that people shouldn't be hypothesizing. I do have to ask, however, have you owned both the PS1 and a high end player? I feel that there is also a lot of "See, this validates my belief that high end equipment is a joke" going around

Back to the subject at hand...

I've got a feeling that this comes down to the "school" of listening we belong to. As I mentioned before, I'm a bit of an anachronist with my guitar; I hate the bright, hollow sound of modern strings. I prefer the somewhat deadened sound of flatwounds. However, when it comes to listening to music, I like accuracy.

My opinion of why some people don't like accuracy is that it can be overwhelming. There are times when I'm listening to a classical recording and, instead of hearing the entire orchestra, I end up focusing on the minutiae of one instrument. In a sense, I guess this does take me away from the "wholeness" of the music. But I can usually put myself in one mindset or the other... wholeness or details. When I listen to the same piece on my crappy stock car stereo, I don't have that option. I have to listen to the wholeness of the piece because I can't hear those details. My belief is that the PS1 is allowing people who either can't, or don't want to, switch between the two modes to stay in "whole-ville". There's nothing wrong with that! I like a muted sound on my guitar, you like a muted sound in your music. Different strokes for different folks

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oicdn /img/forum/go_quote.gif Look at eBay....there are people SPECIFICALLY stating "audiophile" in the title for SCPH-1001. I remember not even a year ago, you could snag one up on eBay for less than $20 shipped. Infact, I got outbid on one for $16 and decided it was too expensive/hassle for the effort. Now you're looking at $50 BEFORE shipping. Jeez, "the secret is out." lol

Weird, back in May mine was only $18.99 + $15 S&H via UPS ground. Sony Playstation PS 1 System SCPH-1001 CORDS + MORE - eBay (item 140233698725 end time May-18-08 14:36:43 PDT)

In my case I have it hooked up to my bedroom HDTV setup, as it sounds better than my Go-Video DVD recorder with CD's. I only listen to that rig via speakers (Polk Audio SDA CRS), and I use my Apple TV for music much more than CD's with the HDTV setup, but I've never bothered to hook the PS1 to my headphone rig. I like it in the HDTV setup because the original Tomb Raider is fun.

 

[JimLG]

Hi.
I'm coming late to this thread, but can someone tell me where to find the SCPH-1001 number on the unit? Thanks.

 

[johnsonad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimLG /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi. I'm coming late to this thread, but can someone tell me where to find the SCPH-1001 number on the unit? Thanks.

Back side, top right side of the lable marked Model.

 

[dr.larkos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's a fair point; I totally agree that people shouldn't be hypothesizing. I do have to ask, however, have you owned both the PS1 and a high end player? I feel that there is also a lot of "See, this validates my belief that high end equipment is a joke" going around Back to the subject at hand... I've got a feeling that this comes down to the "school" of listening we belong to. As I mentioned before, I'm a bit of an anachronist with my guitar; I hate the bright, hollow sound of modern strings. I prefer the somewhat deadened sound of flatwounds. However, when it comes to listening to music, I like accuracy. My opinion of why some people don't like accuracy is that it can be overwhelming. There are times when I'm listening to a classical recording and, instead of hearing the entire orchestra, I end up focusing on the minutiae of one instrument. In a sense, I guess this does take me away from the "wholeness" of the music. But I can usually put myself in one mindset or the other... wholeness or details. When I listen to the same piece on my crappy stock car stereo, I don't have that option. I have to listen to the wholeness of the piece because I can't hear those details. My belief is that the PS1 is allowing people who either can't, or don't want to, switch between the two modes to stay in "whole-ville". There's nothing wrong with that! I like a muted sound on my guitar, you like a muted sound in your music. Different strokes for different folks

Earwicker7, Budgie doesn't need to own or have owned a high end player. Other audiophiles with resources including (besides me) Chief Editors and Senior Reviewers of Hig-End audio magazines, as well as makers of highly rated speakers, which own high-end players (and /or have access to more that one) have already compared the PlayStation to high-end players...being a sizable group, that means that the PlayStation has been compared not just to one but several high end digital front ends. Meanwhile, you still have not heard a PlayStation and insist in giving unsupported generalized opinions based on simplistic analogies....in your opinion, all of us the aforementioned people that exalt the sonic virtues of the Play Station like our music "muted"...that is some stretch!! I refer you to the rather excellent and intelligent review (in the thread that you initiated) on the Linn Akurate (which I gather is what you listen to) by the well heeded audiophile-gentleman of the "island with a volcano in the middle." Ironically, it reads remarkably similar to reviews of the PlayStation: the sound of the Akurate being tailored to avoid digititis with, among other things, "blurred" highs (read rolled off highs…a little Vaseline, in your own words, isn't it?). The only difference is that the tailoring in the Akurate is the result of a pricey conscious effort while in the PlayStation (in the absence of any info to that respect) was a fluke of the original design.

 

[AudioCats]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr.larkos /img/forum/go_quote.gif the sound of the Akurate being tailored to avoid digititis with, among other things, "blurred" highs (read rolled off highs…a little Vaseline, in your own words, isn't it?). The only difference is that the tailoring in the Akurate is the result of a pricey conscious effort while in the PlayStation (in the absence of any info to that respect) was a fluke of the original design.

so rolled off highs and extra warmth is what we want? kind of makes me think Cardas GoldenRatio caps will be the ticket for modding a 1001. wait, Cardas ain't cheap, @ $50/uf

 

[dr.larkos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioCats /img/forum/go_quote.gif so rolled off highs and extra warmth is what we want? kind of makes me think Cardas GoldenRatio caps will be the ticket for modding a 1001. wait, Cardas ain't cheap, @ $50/uf

Not exactly, AudioCats. Rolled off highs is not what we want, it may be what we end up prefering when listening to reproduced digital sound. It is a compromise, the least of all evils...or the most pleasant choice (being positive, glass half full) among imperfect choices. More analog like? Even "rolled off highs " is a compromise term with a more technical ring than "blurred", "muted", "muffled" highs...but pehaps it is not correct as the effect may not be strictly related to frequency response but to the elimination of certain digital sound artifacts that were rendering those frequencies unpleasant. Now, with respect to "warm", that may be more of a wilful personal choice than a compromise...sort of like pourposely seeking and choosing tube sound over solid state (single ended fans, for example, at one clear extreme). Lets keep in mind that live music (besides how it is directed or played by the orchesta, etc.) may sound warmer (or not) depending on the concert hall itself and where you sit....so a preference for warmer sound is not necessarily a departure from accuracy with respect to the reproduction of a musical performance.

 

[dr.larkos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioCats /img/forum/go_quote.gif so rolled off highs and extra warmth is what we want? kind of makes me think Cardas GoldenRatio caps will be the ticket for modding a 1001. wait, Cardas ain't cheap, @ $50/uf

AudioCats, as you mod, keep in mind that the PlayStation, as the miracle that it is, may be a delicate sonic ecosystem and altering its parts may not necessarily produce an even bigger miracle...on the contrary, the miracle could eventually be lost ...of course if you derive great pleasure from modying, by all means, suit yourself...most likely you would be changing your seat to different places in the concert hall [smile].

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr.larkos /img/forum/go_quote.gif Meanwhile, you still have not heard a PlayStation and insist in giving unsupported generalized opinions based on simplistic analogies....

Do you even read my threads? I have owned the original PS1... I was one of those people who paid $500 on eBay in order to get it when it first came out. This has been mentioned NUMEROUS times in my posts.

Why am I starting to get the feeling that you have a bunch of these for sale on eBay? Have you ever posted on a non PS1 thread?

 

[dr.larkos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you even read my threads? I have owned the original PS1... I was one of those people who paid $500 on eBay in order to get it when it first came out. This has been mentioned NUMEROUS times in my posts. Why am I starting to get the feeling that you have a bunch of these for sale on eBay? Have you ever posted on a non PS1 thread?

My sincere apologies earwicker7. I only cheked your posting thread on the Linn Akurate. As I said in a previous posting, I don't listen to headphones so I rarely visit this forum. I encountered this thread as I was curious about what had been the reaction to the Stereophile review of the Play Station. Believe me, this whole thing has amused me inmensely for the last couple of years. While I make enough money (I am a Ph.D. doing financial engineering for a major international investment bank, not an eBay merchant), I am tickled a bit by the paradox of the cost/benfit of the Playstation compared to the money that I have spent in other digital front ends. In any event, since you have listened to a Playstation, that doesn't change the rest of what I said. Simply, you happen to disagree with all those Chief Editors, senior reviewers, reputed speaker manufactures, and thousand other bona fide audiophiles worldwide....that is your prerrogative and I respect it...but, please don't pass judgement on or try to categorize how we like our music.

 

[selfdivider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr.larkos /img/forum/go_quote.gif My opinion of why some people don't like accuracy is that it can be overwhelming. There are times when I'm listening to a classical recording and, instead of hearing the entire orchestra, I end up focusing on the minutiae of one instrument. In a sense, I guess this does take me away from the "wholeness" of the music. But I can usually put myself in one mindset or the other... wholeness or details.

I'm a happy PS1 listener (as my previous posts indicate) but I must say I can't agree with this generalization about detail vs. wholeness. The way we hear music, or in fact, perceive anything, is more multivalent and complex than this 2-way street. We're all capable of processing wholeness and detail at the same time. That's why when you go to a Schubert recital by Radu Lupu at Carnegie, you can be moved by the structural entirety of the piece as well as by the arresting left hand trill in the bass. Or you go to a Radiohead show and be enveloped by the whole sound of "Pyramid Song" AND be captivated by Jonny Greenwood's wailing ondes martenot. I don't think it's an either/or situation at all! I think it's kind of funny in a way that so many audiophiles and critics treasure this "neutrality" and "accuracy" and "colorlessness." No live musical event is neutral or without color. That would make music so boring (and a lot of hi-fi systems, too, are boring in this way, IMO).

I do agree that modding the PS1 gets in the way of its "sonic ecosystem", its magic, so to speak. As John Atkinson's measurements in Stereophile indicate, PS1 measures poorly, resolves closer at 14 bits. But his comments are that it disguises "much of what's wrong with typical CD sound quality." What is the typical CD sound quality? Well, many answers for that. But one way to put it would be that it can sound "overwhelmingly accurate" without involvement. That's why there's this recent vinyl resurgence. I'd even say that this "overwhelming accuracy" has nothing to do with musical accuracy; any accuracy which doesn't let you become involved with the music is superfluous, IMO.

So PS1's magic is, in reality, a fortuitous error. Its deficiencies, as Atkinson writes, actually cover up what is bad with the typical digital sound. But it also doesn't mean that it loses musical accuracy. Are there more resolving & "accurate" players? Of course! But in how it plays the music, the PS1 is "accurate" in its own way, too. I hear all the details I need to hear, coherently.

 

[dr.larkos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by selfdivider /img/forum/go_quote.gif [Originally Posted by dr.larkos My opinion of why some people don't like accuracy is that it can be overwhelming. There are times when I'm listening to a classical recording and, instead of hearing the entire orchestra, I end up focusing on the minutiae of one instrument. In a sense, I guess this does take me away from the "wholeness" of the music. But I can usually put myself in one mindset or the other... wholeness or details.] I'm a happy PS1 listener (as my previous posts indicate) but I must say I can't agree with this generalization about detail vs. wholeness. The way we hear music, or in fact, perceive anything, is more multivalent and complex than this 2-way street. We're all capable of processing wholeness and detail at the same time. That's why when you go to a Schubert recital by Radu Lupu at Carnegie, you can be moved by the structural entirety of the piece as well as by the arresting left hand trill in the bass. Or you go to a Radiohead show and be enveloped by the whole sound of "Pyramid Song" AND be captivated by Jonny Greenwood's wailing ondes martenot. I don't think it's an either/or situation at all! I think it's kind of funny in a way that so many audiophiles and critics treasure this "neutrality" and "accuracy" and "colorlessness." No live musical event is neutral or without color. That would make music so boring (and a lot of hi-fi systems, too, are boring in this way, IMO). I do agree that modding the PS1 gets in the way of its "sonic ecosystem", its magic, so to speak. As John Atkinson's measurements in Stereophile indicate, PS1 measures poorly, resolves closer at 14 bits. But his comments are that it disguises "much of what's wrong with typical CD sound quality." What is the typical CD sound quality? Well, many answers for that. But one way to put it would be that it can sound "overwhelmingly accurate" without involvement. That's why there's this recent vinyl resurgence. I'd even say that this "overwhelming accuracy" has nothing to do with musical accuracy; any accuracy which doesn't let you become involved with the music is superfluous, IMO. So PS1's magic is, in reality, a fortuitous error. Its deficiencies, as Atkinson writes, actually cover up what is bad with the typical digital sound. But it also doesn't mean that it loses musical accuracy. Are there more resolving & "accurate" players? Of course! But in how it plays the music, the PS1 is "accurate" in its own way, too. I hear all the details I need to hear, coherently.

selfdivider, the quote that you attribute to me at the beggining of your posting actually is earwicker7's (post #79). All my subsequent postings are precisely a rebuttal attempt to that simplistic generalization. You and I are exactly on the same page. Accuracy is a very relative term. To begin with, as I mentioned before and as we all know, as you move your seating place in the concert hall you get a different sonic perspective and balance. This is true for acoustic or electrically amplified music. Depending on your liking or sometimes on absolute terms, you can be at a good seat or at a bad seat, or somewhere in between. Now, assuming the mikes and the miking used for a recording are perfect, they would be only capturing the accurate sonic event at a specific concert hall location....one at which nobody is seating...funny, isn't it? That is without taking into consideration how "perfect" the rest of the equipment in the recording and reproduction chain is, all the way to the sonic characteristics of the listening room (or headphones, allowing for their obvious limitation in recreating the full physical impact of live music). So, what exactly is accuracy in the reproduction of a musical event? On the other side, naturalness and musicality in the reproduction of such musical event are more concrete and appreciable qualities referring to a differen type of accuracy. They should matter the most if what you seek is musical enjoyment not the ability to critically analyze sound bits.