Stax SR-X9000
Dec 12, 2023 at 7:56 PM Post #2,776 of 2,979
I was wondering if anyone else in this thread lives in middle of nowhere Central Illinois and would like to stop by and listen to the RSA B-21 Raider prototype I have for a few weeks. I don't have much experience with amps outside the RSA world. To me this amp seems to be very special in its presentation with the X9000 and the 1266.
 
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Dec 13, 2023 at 2:34 AM Post #2,777 of 2,979
Yeah I guess my biggest take away from all the different amp mixing/matching and experiences with the estats is that to my ears, it is true the amps make a difference for estats (unlike how I feel about dynamics headphones majority of the time). However, unless it's a matter of limited power, the difference with the amps is not enough to offset any issues I have with the transducers.

So for example, I would take worst functional amp 007 combination (kgssHV+007) over the best sounding amp x9000 combination (megatron+x9k). By this logic, I can also say if you like the x9000 sound, you could probably get away with a cheaper tube amp like : KGST, single-box novem, or CCS modified T1/006t/007t
I agree that normally (if limited power is taken out of the equation) it is not possible by pure amp selection to turn a headphone into one with a very different character. The difference between transducers is very dominant (imho).

And I can only repeat (also repeat) again that I interpret all these controversial opinions on the X9k as a matter of personal taste (at this summit-fi level at least it is more on flavors than on quality levels, although some technicalities might rank) and cannot be a statement of "truth". But again and again, due these weird rankings "world-beater/2nd/3rd/... worst/incredibly overly-worst" one gets this impression of "objectivity" here at the thread and that is especially a problem for newbies looking for advice.
By the way, not only here but also by these weird S+/S/A/B/C/D/E/F rankings like by Crinacle or at Youtube

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/stax-sr-x9000.959852/post-17854187

When it comes to ...
Still, the megatron does a great job hiding them ...
..., is "hiding" the goal?
"Hiding" sounds for me like "I cannot stand the accuracy and transparency that might transport bad recordings or difficult/harsh music pieces to my ears, so I have to drown it in 'warm' higher-order harmonics generated by a tube cascade"?
There are people out there who hate Stax in general but love warm planars like some of the Mezes or ZMFs. They would never be able to love any of the typical electrostats.
That's fully OK as it is their personal taste. Which is not mine. People are different. As are headphones. And this is great, I think :wink:, plurality donates colors to life and community.
So, all newbies, please take any "ranking" with a grain of salt :wink:

But finally:
Please try professional tools like FabFilter with summit-fi sound quality (they are applied to all our recordings, anyway, in the recording studios, so we cannot avoid them anyway:wink:).
Available are great dynamic equalizers (not only linear parametric EQs), reverbs and especially nonlinear saturators and harmonic sound generators:
https://www.fabfilter.com/products/saturn-2-multiband-distortion-saturation-plug-in

By these tools you can emulate different kind of tube amp flavors, you may add warmth, remove harshness, or whatever you want.
And you can fully flexibly set the amount of warmth or harshness removal (subtly or with impetus) being not possible with a static tube amp as there is no harmonics knob.

Very interesting tools can also be SplitEQ by Eventide
https://www.eventideaudio.com/plug-ins/spliteq/

or Sonnox Envolution
https://www.sonnox.com/plugin/oxford-envolution

where you can subtly manipulate the harmonic and transient character of the sound signature.
 
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Dec 13, 2023 at 4:49 AM Post #2,778 of 2,979
I agree that normally (if limited power is taken out of the equation) it is not possible by pure amp selection to turn a headphone into one with a very different character. The difference between transducers is very dominant (imho).

And I can only repeat (also repeat) again that I interpret all these controversial opinions on the X9k as a matter of personal taste (at this summit-fi level at least it is more on flavors than on quality levels, although some technicalities might rank) and cannot be a statement of "truth". But again and again, due these weird rankings "world-beater/2nd/3rd/... worst/incredibly overly-worst" one gets this impression of "objectivity" here at the thread and that is especially a problem for newbies looking for advice.
By the way, not only here but also by these weird S+/S/A/B/C/D/E/F rankings like by Crinacle or at Youtube

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/stax-sr-x9000.959852/post-17854187

When it comes to ...

..., is "hiding" the goal?
"Hiding" sounds for me like "I cannot stand the accuracy and transparency that might transport bad recordings or difficult/harsh music pieces to my ears, so I have to drown it in 'warm' higher-order harmonics generated by a tube cascade"?
There are people out there who hate Stax in general but love warm planars like some of the Mezes or ZMFs. They would never be able to love any of the typical electrostats.
That's fully OK as it is their personal taste. Which is not mine. People are different. As are headphones. And this is great, I think :wink:, plurality donates colors to life and community.
So, all newbies, please take any "ranking" with a grain of salt :wink:

But finally:
Please try professional tools like FabFilter with summit-fi sound quality (they are applied to all our recordings, anyway, in the recording studios, so we cannot avoid them anyway:wink:).
Available are great dynamic equalizers (not only linear parametric EQs), reverbs and especially nonlinear saturators and harmonic sound generators:
https://www.fabfilter.com/products/saturn-2-multiband-distortion-saturation-plug-in

By these tools you can emulate different kind of tube amp flavors, you may add warmth, remove harshness, or whatever you want.
And you can fully flexibly set the amount of warmth or harshness removal (subtly or with impetus) being not possible with a static tube amp as there is no harmonics knob.

Very interesting tools can also be SplitEQ by Eventide
https://www.eventideaudio.com/plug-ins/spliteq/

or Sonnox Envolution
https://www.sonnox.com/plugin/oxford-envolution

where you can subtly manipulate the harmonic and transient character of the sound signature.

re: the question on my post.
My consensus is not that the issue with the x9k is super critical of recordings - but that it (1) has been designed to stretch the audio image to create the illusion of a bigger soundstage. At times this makes it feel like sound is only coming from far left, center and far right, with big gaps between “aka the 3 blob” effect. Other times this can make the stage feel recessed. (2) The weight of the sound is very light and hollow, especially in the low-end. I find this to be more irritating over time. (3) There is a very sterile timber to the headphone, like it completely lacks musicality.

The megatron pairs better than other amps I tried because (1) it has a massive power output ( essentially 27ma although I’m not sure exactly how much get to the headphones), (2) ac coupled vs most of the other amps are dc, so this creates a noticeable improvement in the low-end due to the phasing without actually eq’ing (3) tube sound vs ss also adds a meatier sound - almost more diffused - which helps with the 3 blobs . That said the megatron is a very linear sound (classic el34) and since estats can run tubes natively there isn’t a step down coloration. You’ll also notice in my other post when I mention tube rolling for my 007, it’s because the megatron (or at least my build) can use different input tube options (ecc83 vs e80cc vs e801c) that have different current. This isn’t a “you need the 1957 vintage” type thing. The e80cc is 2x current which does a great job of waking up the 007. 👍🏻

Now putting all that aside … the Novem on the other hand is a “dirty” colored amp that gets the job done too 😂
 
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Dec 13, 2023 at 5:09 AM Post #2,779 of 2,979
I think there is a difference between a "fix" (e.g. EQ) vs. removing obstacles and enabling higher performance.
With the lack of rigorous testing, it's hard to recommend this or that (be it a wonder-amp, or wonder-EQ). The HRTF + EQ is a workaround, but far less so (nowadays) than us oldtimers - who resent EQ'ing in general - would be led to believe.

Looking at the X9K design, it's obvious there are conscious design decisions that raise some eyebrows. I do think the guys at Stax did exactly what they wanted, but I am just not sure what they wanted :), looking at the back panel, pads design etc. They are just too expensive to experiment with different back panels (e.g. ones allowing somewhat less air flow, like with the 007, or remove the tilt of the back screen, etc), or even different pads.

But I have an educated tip for an easy mod, completely reversible. Remove the plastic mounting ring with pins from below the ear pads. Mount the ear pads with patches of double sided adhesive tape. That alone should make the sound fuller and fix the sound stage. Note that you'd likely need to cover the resulting holes, e.g. with the patches of double sided adhesive tape. This also allows testing whatever ear pads you like, thicker ones for instance, or with somewhat less opening (e.g. try 007 pads, 009 pads, etc) - each change capable to fix or ruin things. Some room to experiment there. This has no risks, since doesn't even change the load of the drivers, like back panel changes would do. EDIT: gently pull or lift the pads to unmount from the housing, no need to fiddle with the pins.

These rings with pins: (source)

1702461980102.png
 
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Dec 13, 2023 at 5:26 AM Post #2,780 of 2,979
There is a very sterile timber to the headphone, like it completely lacks musicality.
Sorry, but this imho is nonsense and only your very personal view. Not mine at all.
For me, the X9k is the most "musical" of all headphones that I own*, besides the Bravura (*these are several TOTL dynamic headphones, and on the E-stat side the Warwick Model One, the Bravura and six different Stax headphones including the 007Mk1).
And for me the X9k sounds more musical than the 007Mk1 which I love as well very much, by the way. But for me it is way behind the X9k and even behind the 009. But that is because my taste is different than your taste.
That is so simple ... period.

And this, BTW, with the Mjolnir Carbon SS as well as with my Antares v3 tube amp.
The later versions of the Mjolnir Carbon (the standard as well as the CC) exhibit ~22 mA by the way, so not far from the 27 mA of the MT, especially on a logarithmic decibel scale being relevant for the listening.

I (only personally! YMMV!) see the "musicality" of the X9k at the same level as the Bravura but by a completely different presentation. Really completely different.
Hence, "musicality" is no single-rail road for me, especially as no headphone of the world can reproduce real acoustical live music by 100% if the room acoustics and the listerner position are good (far away from 100%).
Have you ever heard a chamber orchestra or an ensemble of four different acoustical instruments ten meters away from you?
No two-channel system and no headphone is able to reproduce this extreme and intensive sound experience.
So, the attributes "musical" and "natural" are subjective, anyway.

But that X9k is not a very "musical" headphone?? Sorry, I cannot follow ...
 
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Dec 13, 2023 at 6:14 AM Post #2,781 of 2,979
It honestly just comes down to different strokes for different folks. The application of the term “musicality” is not concrete. It seems the X9000 may be more polarizing than many TOTL headphones but nothing is universally liked so to chalk anything up to more personal preference seems to be an exercise in futility.

Ultimately just voicing your opinions on the matter and letting people decide with their own ears is what is most important. Short of that, let them read opinions and then it’s up to them roll the dice one way or the other with what they believe their ears will find.

The back and forth of who’s perception is correct is a battle of opposing views that is unwinnable.
 
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Dec 13, 2023 at 6:36 AM Post #2,782 of 2,979
Agree that it is all very subjective in terms of what we listen to, what sort of music we enjoy, what our audio chain is like and frankly at the end of the day, we do we want from the X9000. And each one of us perceives differently. Frankly, I find the Carbon neutral with the right touch of sweetness. It is the same way that BHSE did not appeal to me despite hearing over extended periods when HeadAmp had a booth at a Singapore show.
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 7:39 AM Post #2,783 of 2,979
I see absolutely no "controversy" at all in these opinions (of course, being also 'packed' in it).
Bit of a clue as to why: it's must be a weird coincidence that all of these opinions perfectly mirror each other pointing at the same exact things.
Even though all chains are somewhat different confirming the assessment that no mod, chain tweak, EQ or whatever will fundamentally change how something is perceived, it just makes something much more liveable). And let's not forget people voting with their wallets either, reselling - if it was as good as some people say "without controversy", then resale value should not substantially change over time (applies to any 'flagship' in general, some more hyped than others, and the X9000 - or Stax in general - certainly has less of that than certain other brands). Just because almost none of those people state their opinion (publicly), their takes are just as valid like others endlessly praising on forums.
“Everybody talks when they have nothing to say” (Fiona Apple in a 1997 interview, how true it is now in a social media world...)


The term "analytical listener" makes my hairs stand up, but I think up to a point, that's kind of the type who like (or just don't mind as an addition) 'modern' Stax presentation in general, where internal reflections in the housings, diaphragm mass and all sorts of other technical stuff has been meticulously corrected (well, they could do a hell of a lot more designing a Lambda with bass extension and balanced FR again, what they do instead is not disclose any FR measurements anymore...).
As a result, detail IS more forward than in past models and it looks like there is also a certain degree of brightness that has to come as a byproduct of increasing clarity - and I don't personally think either is a good thing in pursuit of a more natural (non-bothersome, "disappearing") sound.
I hear every crosstalk with various instruments the mics pick up in every channel. Everything very 'sliced' and 'precise'.
That's great, very impressive (sometimes, also, there are certainly recordings will take full advantage of all this), unless...
... unless I would rather focus on the melody itself, the "essentials", which brings in the mood, the momentum, the elegance, all of those "subjective" things that makes us feel happy, sad, impressed, surprised, and so on. Immersing in music.
But, instead, it brings other things into focus, in kind of an exaggerated and at times slightly forced way.

A lot of those extra informations are like sensor dust on pictures.
They are not there to be seen or heard. They are there to be cloned out in post or muted.
Or at least it is better that they are blurry and melted into the background rather than sharp in the foreground.
Like film grain, we don't seem to mind that too much. (Vinyl noise on the other hand, that could be a different discussion...)

So, inevitably, I felt unmoved - too many times. I don't perceive it as a very "organic" ("filmic") sound.

That's how I perceived it, it's fine. For people who think "more is more", it probably works and I certainly would not mind having as an addition.
But in my mind at least, the NB Lambda will always be the best thing that they've ever did, which is kind of a polar opposite in almost everything is does. No high bias, super-high-res, massively sized diaphragm, wide cabling, exotic materials, kind of crude to have physical damping crammed in the housing, limiting extension or bass linearity, etc. And yet...
...in my mind, by simply shrinking (simplifying!) the NB Sigma design, they've accidentally made a masterpiece of a headphone (with an "accidentally good FR") for people who tend to appreciate music itself the most, yet still presenting it at a faithfully high 'technical' level, focusing on the 'basics' on what I consider to be a more faithful (less artificial, depending on the viewpoint, I don't want to say the NB is "real", of course it is not, I know every single one of its ["controversial"] faults all too well, yet it just feels a "prettier, more focused, more involving dreamland" than other Staxes with certain aspects that are of utmost importance to my perception of the sound.
Moving away from this level and to my ears, it is basically impossible to keep the same level of purity (musicality, involvement) in the sound.
The Stax Omega (flagship) series sound is much more extended, grandiose, dimensional, holographic, transparent type of sound with higher dynamics and more fullness.
But this is always going to be more distant and nuance-focused. Therefore, it can never feel as plain, simple, tactile, intimate and faithful, a bit more "hi-fi" like (not necessarily in a bad way). But the fact of the matter to me is many times more money spent does not automatically equal to "higher-end sound". Still dying to hear the "uncontroversial" T2, because on the amp front it might be a clear upgrade, but it would be interesting to evaluate whether 4-5x money over a used Carbon is justifiable or not and with specific models and whether the Carbon is still "good enough" or "not anymore".

A few people pointed out a feeling of recession in the midrange. I do agree, and I think that up to a point it's there on any big Stax (while NB Lambda is the opposite but that's why I love it, never loses grip on the human element of the music instead of "getting lost" in other important or distracting details, it's not a "busy" sound) so a wire with gain type of amp might not be the ultimate solution despite being an ideal amp on paper by design.

Alternatively, we can also move further down in the chain and having a sound "even more pure" but also bit murky and too coloured. SR-5 Gold is not something I hold in high regards amongst all the other greats, but it's no risk to transport either, so I did carry it to a trip this year with the little SRA-3S amp just to have something in the evenings and once I got used to its style, I still liked it. Does not matter that it's a "low-end" model, still does certain things much more distinctively than an X9000.
 
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Dec 13, 2023 at 8:38 AM Post #2,784 of 2,979
I see absolutely no "controversy" at all in these opinions (of course, being also 'packed' in it).
Bit of a clue as to why: it's must be a weird coincidence that all of these opinions perfectly mirror each other pointing at the same exact things.

The problem is that this simply isn't true. There is some consistency from users that love the 007 with their POV on the x9000, which makes total sense, as these users have more aligned preferences. But across the board, there is a wide degree of varying opinions of the pros and quirks of the x9000. That is very easily evidenced in this thread.

Clearly you're not a fan of it, which is ok. But I don't get the point of trying to convince others in some objective way that it isn't good. It's not good for you, and that's ok. For the numbers of people you mention selling it, you have plenty of people buying it still enjoying it. It's totally ok if you and some others don't like it. And as major fans of the 007 and Omega, I would also understand why. :)


And I can only repeat (also repeat) again that I interpret all these controversial opinions on the X9k as a matter of personal taste (at this summit-fi level at least it is more on flavors than on quality levels, although some technicalities might rank) and cannot be a statement of "truth". But again and again, due these weird rankings "world-beater/2nd/3rd/... worst/incredibly overly-worst" one gets this impression of "objectivity" here at the thread and that is especially a problem for newbies looking for advice.
By the way, not only here but also by these weird S+/S/A/B/C/D/E/F rankings like by Crinacle or at Youtube

Agree here. Which is what I was getting at earlier. Rather than a rigid list of amps/chains to follow as a guide, you're better off identifying how the x9000 meets your preferences and where it doesn't to then figure out a chain for you.


-------

Interestingly enough, I'm seeing quite the uptick in interest in the x9000 as of late. Quite a few folks in summit-fi now seem keen to just opting to grab the x9000 and a nice amp to retire and avoid the FOMO journey overall, as well as others that had or heard it previously going back to it.
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 8:51 AM Post #2,785 of 2,979
The problem is that this simply isn't true. There is some consistency from users that love the 007 with their POV on the x9000, which makes total sense, as these users have more aligned preferences. But across the board, there is a wide degree of varying opinions of the pros and quirks of the x9000. That is very easily evidenced in this thread.


This guy never heard the 007, neither all the people who owned the X9000 but not the 007, so this statement isn't valid as such.
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 9:00 AM Post #2,786 of 2,979


This guy never heard the 007, neither all the people who owned the X9000 but not the 007, so this statement isn't valid as such.


This doesn't disprove anything I just said. I said there was *some* consistency across 007 users. *Some* people having not heard the 007 and aligning with similar views from *some* people that have, does not go against the point I made. There are still others that have opposing or differing views.

The overall point is, there is a lot of inconsistency across the board that simply comes down to preferences. People have a varying level of issues with it (I just shared an example about my issue with it that I know some others have no problem with), and they have a varying number of things they love about it. Again it's clearly evidenced in this thread, and it's a big reason you see some inconsistencies in the amp conversation (i.e. some loving the Carbon pairing, others not, etc.).

All of that said, it's an excellent headphone, and I don't get the point trying to objectively paint it as otherwise. If you don't like it, you don't like it. But plenty people do lol
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 10:10 AM Post #2,787 of 2,979
I'm in the camp that did not find the X9000 to be sterile at all. If anything, it immediately captivated me and made me enjoy listening to music even when I was trying to pick apart its flaws. Sterile to me would be something like the DCA Stealth. I did not notice actual 3-blob imaging in my demoes of the X9K. It was quite "holographic" to me, and the illusion of boundless size to the soundstage was its strongest selling point to me.

I also agree that it's about preferences. A warmer, richer sound is not better, it's just another flavor. Even neutrality in sound is just another flavor. I can see where complaints that the X9000 is pulling music apart too much are coming from, other than the "too much" part. I love that effect of sounds being separated and floating around me, like I'm in a cloud of sounds. To me, that is immersive.

I'm not going to argue that the X9000 is a perfect headphone or anything like that, because it's not, even to me and my preferences. But it also doesn't have to be. If I get tired of its energetic and intense presentation, I can either turn on an EQ preset or just move to another headphone for a while and come back later.
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 10:48 AM Post #2,788 of 2,979
I'm in the camp that did not find the X9000 to be sterile at all. If anything, it immediately captivated me and made me enjoy listening to music even when I was trying to pick apart its flaws. Sterile to me would be something like the DCA Stealth. I did not notice actual 3-blob imaging in my demoes of the X9K. It was quite "holographic" to me, and the illusion of boundless size to the soundstage was its strongest selling point to me.

I also agree that it's about preferences. A warmer, richer sound is not better, it's just another flavor. Even neutrality in sound is just another flavor. I can see where complaints that the X9000 is pulling music apart too much are coming from, other than the "too much" part. I love that effect of sounds being separated and floating around me, like I'm in a cloud of sounds. To me, that is immersive.

I'm not going to argue that the X9000 is a perfect headphone or anything like that, because it's not, even to me and my preferences. But it also doesn't have to be. If I get tired of its energetic and intense presentation, I can either turn on an EQ preset or just move to another headphone for a while and come back later.
+1. Well said and I concur! When I first heard the X9k I was blown away; in tears.
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 11:33 AM Post #2,789 of 2,979
I'm in the camp that did not find the X9000 to be sterile at all. If anything, it immediately captivated me and made me enjoy listening to music even when I was trying to pick apart its flaws. Sterile to me would be something like the DCA Stealth. I did not notice actual 3-blob imaging in my demoes of the X9K. It was quite "holographic" to me, and the illusion of boundless size to the soundstage was its strongest selling point to me.
If I might ask, how exactly might you describe this "illusion of boundless soundstage", and with what track was it heard? I've only heard such with specially mixed tracks incorporating binaural cues or some recordings that captured the spatial cues of some sound sounds in a rather nice way. I otherwise haven't heard any headphone that convincingly stretches every sound source out by a noticeable distance like can be done with HRTF measurements and binaural rendering. Am I unlucky to have primarily heard sounds sans crossfeed as merely coming from the drivers and on a small arc before my face?
 
Dec 13, 2023 at 1:45 PM Post #2,790 of 2,979
If I might ask, how exactly might you describe this "illusion of boundless soundstage", and with what track was it heard? I've only heard such with specially mixed tracks incorporating binaural cues or some recordings that captured the spatial cues of some sound sounds in a rather nice way. I otherwise haven't heard any headphone that convincingly stretches every sound source out by a noticeable distance like can be done with HRTF measurements and binaural rendering. Am I unlucky to have primarily heard sounds sans crossfeed as merely coming from the drivers and on a small arc before my face?
For me, it's the illusion that there could be more out there. It's a trick of the layering, that there are things close, then things further out, and then more things even further out that my mind extrapolate that there could be even more out there. I hear this with most tracks, but electronic tracks are usually best with songs like "Bloom" by Dabin and "With Love Until We Die" by Tristam and "Underneath My Skin" by HALIENE. In those tracks, the vocals are upfront, the main melody is a little further away, and then there are these little synths and effects fluttering in the background that sound far away on the X9K. The Corina and HD800S in comparison put all of the sounds in this even arc in front of me, just with arcs of different sizes.

Thus the X9K manufactures this layering and separation which just sounds delightful to me, like I'm floating in the midst of all of this sound. It does so even though it's not actually as large in soundstage as the HD800S, it just uses that soundstage better.

The best analogy to me is like how a very immersive video game produces the illusion that there's a larger world outside of the player character and their adventures. The play area is inherently bounded and NPCs don't actually have their own lives while the player is away, of course, but the best games make it seem as if there was a living world beyond what the player can see.
 

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