[GuyDebord]

SmellyGas, you seem to be googling a lot, but reading about it isnt enough to post such modified internet opinions. You should listen first so at least you dont stay on the abstract. The people here are some of the most experienced and experts on electrostatic hp amps in the world, you should pay attention, rather than just rebounce an argument on something you havent heard.

If you listen more than read, you would know that all the talks about speaker amps not making a difference is just pure BS. This hobby is about the production emotion through music, and here, measurements and graphs just tell less than half of the story.....

btw, good luck with your search for a hd800 substitute

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif .... So even at 500V, we're talking 100mW if the headphones had an impedance of 0 ohms (short circuit). So I'm honestly confused as to why a small amp couldn't drive the SR-007's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif P=V^2/R is a correct formula for power. However, it is not the applicable formula here as you may have guessed when you came up with 250,000 watts. Obviously your wall socket could not deliver that. If you must use resistance, then I believe there is a very high-value series resistor installed, so even if your headphones went to short, the current delivery would still be very limited (which is why electrostatic headphones are generally safe from electrocution hazard). P = voltage x current is probably a more applicable formula.

It was you sir who said that at shortcircuit (0 Ohms impedance) 500V were just 100mW. I just used the formula to demonstrate you were wrong.

All this leads us nowhere. Just sell your HD800, get the O2 and whatever amp you think would do the work. Then if you like the results, great. If not, then keep trying phones until you find some that sound good for you. It's evident you have your own ideas about amps, so follow them.
What you cannot pretend is convincing any of the seasoned and experienced members here, who have tried more amps for electrostats than you even knew existed, that a low level Stax amp will drive the O2 properly. It won't for their taste and demands. Yours may differ, which is perfectly right.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nonsense! Engineers are in business to make products which sell.

I beg to differ. Engineers are in charge of design, the "how." Managers and PR are what determines what needs to get designed, the "what." Sales teams are what sell the products to retailers. Retailers then have their own sales teams to sell the product to you.

Quote:

They don't care any more (or less) about specs than about sound quality. The bottom line is the bottom line. Anyone who tries to sell any product based on specs rather than consumer acceptance will be looking for another job pretty quickly.

Engineers care about designing the circuit/product/whatever they were assigned/delegated. It's not up to them to set market prices, analyze costs, etc. - that is done by another department. Perhaps in a one-man operation, there can be one person who designs, markets, and sells, but not in a mainstream company.

Quote:

I seriously doubt that the type of specs you mention have much correlation with quality audio. Maybe at the extreme end of bad pertformance noise floor matters but not for most of the equipment being discussed in this forum.

I did not mention any specs that I felt represented

Again you need some serious exposure to the type of equipment you are writing about. Otherwise you don't know what you are getting into or talking about.[/QUOTE]

 

[J-Pak]

Does anyone have impedance curves for the SR-007 mk1? I think I remember seeing one and it was pretty insane.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool_Torpedo /img/forum/go_quote.gif It was you sir who said that at shortcircuit (0 Ohms impedance) 500V were just 100mW. I just used the formula to demonstrate you were wrong.

The only thing you demonstrated was that you don't understand the equation in the context of the circuit. As I already said, there is a SERIES RESISTOR in that circuit on the order of mega-ohms. So if the headphones were to short circuit, the SERIES RESISTOR would still limit the current to non-lethal amounts.

Quote:

What you cannot pretend is convincing any of the seasoned and experienced members here, who have tried more amps for electrostats than you even knew existed, that a low level Stax amp will drive the O2 properly. It won't for their taste and demands. Yours may differ, which is perfectly right.

No, I think you're confused. I'm not trying to convince anyone that the 252's are just as good as the more expensive amps. You should read more carefully. I'm simply asking for a reasonable electrical explanation for why people claim the lower end stax amps are not powerful enough. You clearly don't know (based on your response above), so never mind.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif SmellyGas, you seem to be googling a lot, but reading about it isnt enough to post such modified internet opinions.

I've actually been in this hobby for decades, so you don't need to be condescending. thanks.

Quote:

You should listen first so at least you dont stay on the abstract. The people here are some of the most experienced and experts on electrostatic hp amps in the world, you should pay attention, rather than just rebounce an argument on something you havent heard.

So far, none of the world experts on electrostatic amps have replied. I think it would be great if they did, though.

Quote:

If you listen more than read, you would know that all the talks about speaker amps not making a difference is just pure BS. This hobby is about the production emotion through music, and here, measurements and graphs just tell less than half of the story.....

If you only listened and never read, then you would probably never know about the many well-conducted trials, none of which were able to demonstrate that people could hear appreciable differences among loudspeaker amps. There's a good paper in JAES about this. In fact, some of these trials were published in Audio and Stereo Review, magazines that you might have heard of. Now, I'm not going to debate this with you, but if you read The Audio Critic, there are editors who have heard far more amps/equipment than YOU ever knew existed (to borrow your line) and they share my understanding of loudspeaker amplifiers and the research done thus far.

If scientists only listened and never questioned, then we would still believe the world is flat, that humors circulate in the body, and sacrificing animals could change the weather. Consider that.

Now people are telling me that the expensive amps have more power and therefore sound better. Yet, based on what I've read, the stats are capacitative loads with miniscule power consumption. I would very much like someone with more experience in electrostat hp design/electronics to explain what I'm missing.

 

[GuyDebord]

 

[boomana]

SmeggyGas, you asked a question about a specific amp and how it drove the O2s. Other than a person who hadn't heard the amp in question, I believe all responded it didn't sound good. You appear to have been unsatisfied with that answer. Members who have heard a variety of amps with the O2s basically informed you that they require a heck of a lot more power than the Stax amps provide, especially the lesser models, but you seem unsatisfied with their experience. That's fine. You don't need to like or take anyone's advice, but since you don't want to hear what folks with experience are telling you, I suggest A) buy the 252, but don't blame the O2s if you don't like the sound you're hearing, or at least don't do it here, and/or B) read up as much as you want about specs (always interesting and has value), but don't come here telling people who actually know how something sounds, based on years of experience, how it should sound, when you, in fact, have no dang clue. You can argue all you want, but at this point it's asinine, and continued efforts on your part in this direction, at least in this thread, will strongly suggest you are trolling.

 

[gilency]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, if people are anywhere as uncivil during meets as they were in my HD800 thread, then no thanks. I have never seen so much DSM-IV activity over an inanimate object like a pair of headphones in my life.

I do have a little issue with this comment. I have been to only one meet: CanJam 09 at LA.I am relatively new to headfi, but I can tell you the crowd at that meeting was anything but uncivil. I met some very nice fellows who explained in detail their gear and answered my questions.
I look forward to more meets, friendly and helpful people is all I saw. Of course, not everybody is nice, and some poeple like to argue for the sake of arguing.
I was fascinated by electrostatics and loved their sound at the meet and I don't think I would be happy with dynamic phones (at least not now).
I am contempt with my mid tier 404's and eventually will upgrade.
Please don't call most of us uncivil.
If people where uncivil at your HD800 thread, was it you or your comments that irritated people the way you have done here? Personality disorder perhaps?
If you mention DSMIV you may be a psychiatrist or a psychologist or whatever. Stop psychoanalyzing us. It won't work.
You can start your own thread about amplifiers if you want.
Now, lets go back to talk about electrostats.

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif SmeggyGas, you asked a question about a specific amp and how it drove the O2s. Other than a person who hadn't heard the amp in question, I believe all responded it didn't sound good.

Have been quite occupied since I last posted here and have seen that this thing is getting out of hands.


Even so I'd like to point out, boomana, that the problem doesn't come when that other person *I* hadn't heard the amp, because I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about other members that don't think that it "didn't sound good".

They said that the amplifier SRM-252 could drive the headphones without distortion to moderate listening levels. I believe that is what SmellyGas wants to do.

We both lack of measurements or tests on RMAA. As we can make mistakes, we came to this specific post to ask if the case of electrostatic amplifiers is the same one as any "normal headamp". We were trying to search for some "objective" opinion, or some reliable one, when all we have taken has been contradictions. (Sorry smellygas for adding you here, in this line)

Then the people who say you can drive the O2 with the SRM-252 without it sounding BAD are now being pointed out as individuals that lack of hearing capabilities or that don't know what a good system is. And for SmellyGas it has also happened with his HD800 headphones. If it weren't his source, it were his amps that weren't more expensive...

The thing is that it always seems to be the problem of the products people use/buy. It is never one's ears or one's listening method, no. It has to be your equipment, or in that case the synergy -that it is not good-.

Due to all that comments, believing that the SRM-252 unit will not be sufficient to power the Omega 2 correctly becomes hard. As there are some people who believe the basic driver unit is enough to drive the headphones properly.

So far I hope that whatever unit SmellyGas takes gives him what he is looking for.
Even so I think it is a more intelligent move (for your wallet) to get the SRM-252 (that as some people have pointed out it can drive the O2 without distorting to moderate listening levels) and try it that way. I think it is better to make a mistake with a $300 unit than with a $1000 unit.

Your call smellygas!

 

[moonboy403]

Correct me if I'm wrong, the opinion of the 252 not being able to realize the potential of the O2 in this thread has been overwhelming(about 10 members) while "the people" that you referred to were but only 1(WilCox).

So what contradictions are there?

 

[n_maher]

Please continue the discussion here.

 

[The Monkey]

Good idea to separate the thread. Thanks Nate.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif SmeggyGas, you asked a question about a specific amp and how it drove the O2s. Other than a person who hadn't heard the amp in question, I believe all responded it didn't sound good. You appear to have been unsatisfied with that answer.

Please allow me to clarify, because based on this and several other responses, I have apparently not made myself clear. I think it's pretty obvious that the overwhelming majority of people think the 252 + O2's do not sound good. Perhaps 3 people have reported hearing this combination, and the rest are basing their opinion on what they know about the Stax range. I have already acknowledged this. What I am not satisfied with is their explanation WHY. The popular explanation has been that the smaller amps do not have enough power. Yet, according to a JAES article on electrostat amp design, an article on Headwize, and what I know about electrostatic headphones, this doesn't make sense - there should be only miniscule amounts of power drawn by the headphone, which is essentially a capacitative load. Perhaps I don't understand it correctly - which is why I have asked if anybody could clarify this on several occasions. To reiterate, I am simply asking if anyone can explain why power availability is such an issue when the headphones themselves draw current on the order of microamps (and by calculation, prob < 100mW)., Instead, people are offended that I asked questions rather than just purchasing the more expensive and presumably more powerful amps, which were recommended by the individuals with more Stax experience.

Quote:

, but don't come here telling people who actually know how something sounds, based on years of experience, how it should sound, when you, in fact, have no dang clue. You can argue all you want, but at this point it's asinine, and continued efforts on your part in this direction, at least in this thread, will strongly suggest you are trolling.

I'm sorry that you feel that I have "no dang clue." However, I do not recall telling people how Stax amps should sound.

 

[John Buchanan]

I too would suggest Smellygas just buy the 252 and O2 and take them along to a meet and compare the 252 with other amps and see what he thinks. It seems obvious to me that no discussion will dissuade him from believing any opinions of people who suggested other combinations are preferable. Tying specifications to the quality of music reproduction is a very inexact science. Your ears should help you see which approach was the correct one. I found that a balanced input into an SRM-717 beat a single ended input into an SRM1 Mk2 Professional (from the same CD player into either the O2 or Sigma 404).
The new Stax seems to be far more conservative than old Stax, probably for good financial reasons. I suspect that they would love to be able to market a super amp that would power the phones as well as the SRM-T2, but non-selling wayyyy over the top designs may have caused old Stax to close its doors. Stax itself even suggests amplifiers that are compatible with its phones on their website. The Lambda series seems to be more compatible with a bigger range of amplifiers than the Sigma/404 and O2.