[Elysian]

Hi all.  I've been a lurker on Head-Fi for the last two years, but decided it's finally time to make an account and go all-in with this hobby

I recently entered the headphone world a year ago with a Grado SR-225i, GS-1 (w/ DACT), and gamma2.  Everything's routed through S/PDIF (Xonar DX--cheapie card, I just didn't want to use my mobo S/PDIF connection), and music's all played through a high-end PC (fb2k, all FLAC 16/44 to 24/96).  Too lazy to deal with CDs, and got tired of endlessly cleaning lint off of vinyl.

My intention was to buy some cost-effective equipment to see if I could actually tell a difference with a nice pair of headphones, DAC, and amp.  Went solid-state over tube based on a friend's recommendation, as he said solid-state would fit my music preferences (electronica, hip-hop, metal, and rock) much better than tube.

I'm addicted now, and I'm looking to upgrade my entire setup.  I was originally considering an upgrade to a RS-1i, PS-1000i, or SR-007 O2 MKII, but had a chance to demo a LCD-2 and it blew away the RS-1i and GS-1000i.  I immediately lost all interest in the Grados, and I'm now stuck deciding between Audeze and Stax.  I've never listened to an electrostat.

I'm hoping to get opinions on whether the SR-007 O2 MKII would be a good fit for my music preferences.  I've noticed the music I listen to isn't common among the high-end crowd (or the review sites like 6moons) so I'm having a lot of difficulty finding a frame of reference.  If I went for the Stax, I'd get a BHSE in a year or two, but would use a cheap electrostat amp in the meantime.  I'm also looking to upgrade my DAC.  Based on my research, I'm looking at, from most to least desired: ARC DAC8, Weiss Minerva, Antelope Zodiac Gold, or a $1-2k DAC with the ES9018.  Another thing I'm struggling with is the order to upgrade my setup in.  I'm leaning towards starting with the headphones, then DAC, then finally amp.

Any thoughts on my situation would be greatly appreciated.  If I never ran into those LCD-2s, I probably would've just rolled the dice for the SR-007s--can't find a store that demos electrostats in the South Bay (Norcal).  I've heard criticism that electrostats just aren't good for fast music that's heavy on bass, and the dynamics don't fit, but reviews say SR-007 force people to drop their electrostat preconceptions with the right setup.  My concern with the LCD-2s is that while the bass was heavenly, I found them muddy and lacking crispness, the high-end not that great, and vocals were meh (granted, the DAC and AMP setup was not that good).  The one thing I like about my Grados is that everything sounds very clean--all the different audio tracks are clearly defined.  I'm not sure what the right term here is (analytical?).

A random sampling of the music I'd regularly put the SR-007s through: Hybrid, UNKLE, Way Out West, Isis, Misery Signals, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Saosin, Underoath, anything produced by DJ Premier, Pete Rock, RZA, etc.

Thanks for any input!  I'm already checking Audiogon and the Head-fi FS multiple times a day for a SR-007 MKII combo, but I admit I'm a bit nervous on dropping this much money on something I've never heard (the Bay Area meetup is 6 months away!), and whether electrostats and tubes just aren't a good match for me.

 

[deadlylover]

Considering your past experience with the LCD-2, you will probably like the O2. I've had them both at one point in time, and they do just fine with Electronica/Metal (they do well with just about anything really).
 
Be careful with what version you get, all O2mk2's are not the same, especially in the bass department. But there's nothing a little blu-tak can't fix.
 
Good call on trying to find them used, you shouldn't be out of pocket too much if the O2's aren't your cup of tea.

 

[n3rdling]

I think there's a person near you willing to sell or trade his O2mk2 + Woo GES, check the FS forums here.

 

[Elysian]

Great, thank you for the comments!  I was a bit concerned from reading about how the 404s and Lambdas handle music that is a lot more slower/analog (for lack of a better word) sounding.  I think I'll eventually end up with both headphones, but the challenge seems to be prioritizing the purchase order.  I feel a lot more confident about the SR-007s now.
 
I saw the FS/FT ad but automatically discounted myself since I think my headphones are worse and amp is better than what the person was looking for, but on second thought, I'll reach out and see if there's anything workable.
 
This probably sounds a bit silly to someone whose been collecting for awhile, but I was pretty shocked at how an amp and dac can make the RS-1i and GS-1000i sounds much worse than the SR-225i, both with lossless music.  The LCD-2 shone, even with a not-so-great amp and dac setup, so I'd like to check out how it performs with a proper solid-state setup someday.

 

[kiteki]

Subscribed.

 

[wind016]

Quote:

My concern with the LCD-2s is that while the bass was heavenly, I found them muddy and lacking crispness, the high-end not that great, and vocals were meh (granted, the DAC and AMP setup was not that good).
 
I've heard criticism that electrostats just aren't good for fast music that's heavy on bass, and the dynamics don't fit, but reviews say SR-007 force people to drop their electrostat preconceptions with the right setup.
A random sampling of the music I'd regularly put the SR-007s through: Hybrid, UNKLE, Way Out West, Isis, Misery Signals, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Saosin, Underoath, anything produced by DJ Premier, Pete Rock, RZA, etc.

Thanks for any input!  I'm already checking Audiogon and the Head-fi FS multiple times a day for a SR-007 MKII combo, but I admit I'm a bit nervous on dropping this much money on something I've never heard (the Bay Area meetup is 6 months away!), and whether electrostats and tubes just aren't a good match for me.

I don't know what people mean about electrostats not fitting fast music, but I've never heard any other Stax than the Omegas. The Stax Omega and Omega 2s are fantastic for fast paced music. Pairing some of the fastest and lightest headphone drivers with plenty of bass impactful sound would be great for anyone into fast music I would imagine. That's exactly how the Omegas are.
 
The O2 mk1s sound similar to the LCD2, but they have more treble, sound stage, and resolution. I have read that the mk2s have more treble and more mid bass than the mk1s (which are supposed more balanced than the mk2s). Then again, there seems to be different versions of the mk2s also.
 
I have a thread here about the O2s and I think the electrostatic sound takes some getting used to. It can sound a bit hollow at first (at least with a Stax SRM323s amp) when coming from slower, heavier drivers of dynamics and orthos, but it should be rather quick to get used to though. They aren't in your face, but they aren't boring either. They have plenty of bass impact but they are also pretty much the least fatiguing headphones you can hear other than ear buds.

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

I'm addicted now, and I'm looking to upgrade my entire setup.  I was originally considering an upgrade to a RS-1i, PS-1000i, or SR-007 O2 MKII, but had a chance to demo a LCD-2 and it blew away the RS-1i and GS-1000i.  I immediately lost all interest in the Grados, and I'm now stuck deciding between Audeze and Stax.  I've never listened to an electrostat.

I'm hoping to get opinions on whether the SR-007 O2 MKII would be a good fit for my music preferences.  I've noticed the music I listen to isn't common among the high-end crowd (or the review sites like 6moons) so I'm having a lot of difficulty finding a frame of reference.  If I went for the Stax, I'd get a BHSE in a year or two, but would use a cheap electrostat amp in the meantime.  I'm also looking to upgrade my DAC.  Based on my research, I'm looking at, from most to least desired: ARC DAC8, Weiss Minerva, Antelope Zodiac Gold, or a $1-2k DAC with the ES9018.  Another thing I'm struggling with is the order to upgrade my setup in.  I'm leaning towards starting with the headphones, then DAC, then finally amp.

Any thoughts on my situation would be greatly appreciated.  If I never ran into those LCD-2s, I probably would've just rolled the dice for the SR-007s--can't find a store that demos electrostats in the South Bay (Norcal).  I've heard criticism that electrostats just aren't good for fast music that's heavy on bass, and the dynamics don't fit, but reviews say SR-007 force people to drop their electrostat preconceptions with the right setup.  My concern with the LCD-2s is that while the bass was heavenly, I found them muddy and lacking crispness, the high-end not that great, and vocals were meh (granted, the DAC and AMP setup was not that good).  The one thing I like about my Grados is that everything sounds very clean--all the different audio tracks are clearly defined.  I'm not sure what the right term here is (analytical?).

A random sampling of the music I'd regularly put the SR-007s through: Hybrid, UNKLE, Way Out West, Isis, Misery Signals, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Saosin, Underoath, anything produced by DJ Premier, Pete Rock, RZA, etc.

Thanks for any input!  I'm already checking Audiogon and the Head-fi FS multiple times a day for a SR-007 MKII combo, but I admit I'm a bit nervous on dropping this much money on something I've never heard (the Bay Area meetup is 6 months away!), and whether electrostats and tubes just aren't a good match for me.

The Omega 2 sounds great with metal, and they are also extremely good with electronica (to a point). It's only when you get down to below 35Hz or so that you may notice a lack of impact compared to dynamics or some of the Orthos. If you listen to a lot of music with really deep bass, you may want to consider the LCD-2 or even a Denon LA7000 instead. Those are also both much easier to drive (and get amps for). The 323S serves fine temporarily, but the O2 demands the best to really shine. In terms of speed, balance, and refinement, I think the O2 is challenged only by other electrostats.
 
With any high-end headphone, a source upgrade is going to be a must. You should definitely get rid of your soundcard, and go to asynchronous USB for audio. I've heard good things about the DAC8, but the USB tech there is not asynchronous. If you love the way it sounds, you should probably still get a USB > S/Pdif conveter, and use the DAC8's BNC input. The Minerva is a Weiss DAC2 with a different face plate, and a $2,000 "sucker" tax. Avoid that, and add the Empirical Overdrive to your list of possible choices. The Alpha DAC and the AA DAC1 Mk4 are also both worth consideration as used buys with a S/Pdif converter in front of them. If you're willing to spend $5K on the DAC8, you may also want to seriously consider the EMM DAC2 SE, which is frequently available used around that range.
 
On the other end of the scale, the new MK II version of the Minimax Tube DAC is definitely worth a look as well, as it now has built in asynchronous USB which is still pretty rare at that price level.
 

 

[MaZa]

If you are considering orthos too, give Hifiman headphones a listen. If they lack something, it is not clarity. This Grado head loves his HE-5. Bass is good, treble is crystal clear (bit too pronounced actually, something HE-5LE fixed I heard). It lacks some weight in the midrange though. Thats why I am very interested in the new HE-500.

 

[Elysian]

I don't listen to too much Lustmord these days, so I don't think too much of my music goes below that 35Hz... though, now I'm wondering how well the LCD-2s would treat my collection of cold meat (dark ambient) releases!
 
The DAC is something I'm very uncertain about.  Originally I just wanted to throw $1.5-5k at the problem, but I've lately been reading that async USB is superior to the S/PDIF output through integrated mobo audio or a sound card.  I thought any optical would get rid of all the annoying feedback that comes from a non-optimized system like the internals of a non-optimized PC (like how a USB sound card gets rid of the hum inherent to cheap Dell notebooks and office PCs).
 
Is the new recommended solution to get a DAC which supports async USB, and plug it in directly to a USB 3.0 port on my mobo?  I read that the newer DACs now involve driver and software installations, and you just manage your source through the DAC and the application's Win7/OSX interface.  It seems like you don't need any sort of sound card or integrated sound to use a PC as a source now?  Tbh, I'd be very happy to get rid of this Xonar DX, as I'm unhappy with ASUS and their mandatory Audio Center software which overrides the Win7 control panel.
 
If there are any good recommendations for async USB DACs (preferably up to 24/192), I'd be really appreciative.  The DAC is the one component I'm thinking it might be better to cap myself to $2k at, given how quickly the technology is still improving.
 
Quote:

The Omega 2 sounds great with metal, and they are also extremely good with electronica (to a point). It's only when you get down to below 35Hz or so that you may notice a lack of impact compared to dynamics or some of the Orthos. If you listen to a lot of music with really deep bass, you may want to consider the LCD-2 or even a Denon LA7000 instead. Those are also both much easier to drive (and get amps for). The 323S serves fine temporarily, but the O2 demands the best to really shine. In terms of speed, balance, and refinement, I think the O2 is challenged only by other electrostats.
 
With any high-end headphone, a source upgrade is going to be a must. You should definitely get rid of your soundcard, and go to asynchronous USB for audio. I've heard good things about the DAC8, but the USB tech there is not asynchronous. If you love the way it sounds, you should probably still get a USB > S/Pdif conveter, and use the DAC8's BNC input. The Minerva is a Weiss DAC2 with a different face plate, and a $2,000 "sucker" tax. Avoid that, and add the Empirical Overdrive to your list of possible choices. The Alpha DAC and the AA DAC1 Mk4 are also both worth consideration as used buys with a S/Pdif converter in front of them. If you're willing to spend $5K on the DAC8, you may also want to seriously consider the EMM DAC2 SE, which is frequently available used around that range.
 
On the other end of the scale, the new MK II version of the Minimax Tube DAC is definitely worth a look as well, as it now has built in asynchronous USB which is still pretty rare at that price level.
 

I'll have to check out the HE-500 and HE-6 if they alleviate the lack of clarity in the LCD-2.  I feel the LCD-2s are pretty close, which makes me excited to think about how far orthos will go in the next 3-5 years.
 
I've heard the electrostat sound takes a bit to get used to, especially if you've only listened to dynamics your entire life.  I used to listen to music entirely through a DJing setup, and it took me awhile to appreciate clarity and get used to the lack of bass.  It seems like the amp makes a huge difference with the electrostats, so it makes me wonder whether SR-007s will sound tinny and lacking impact on anything short of a WA GES or KGSS.

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

The DAC is something I'm very uncertain about.  Originally I just wanted to throw $1.5-5k at the problem, but I've lately been reading that async USB is superior to the S/PDIF output through integrated mobo audio or a sound card.  I thought any optical would get rid of all the annoying feedback that comes from a non-optimized system like the internals of a non-optimized PC (like how a USB sound card gets rid of the hum inherent to cheap Dell notebooks and office PCs).
 
Is the new recommended solution to get a DAC which supports async USB, and plug it in directly to a USB 3.0 port on my mobo?  I read that the newer DACs now involve driver and software installations, and you just manage your source through the DAC and the application's Win7/OSX interface.  It seems like you don't need any sort of sound card or integrated sound to use a PC as a source now?  Tbh, I'd be very happy to get rid of this Xonar DX, as I'm unhappy with ASUS and their mandatory Audio Center software which overrides the Win7 control panel.
 
If there are any good recommendations for async USB DACs (preferably up to 24/192), I'd be really appreciative.  The DAC is the one component I'm thinking it might be better to cap myself to $2k at, given how quickly the technology is still improving.
 

I'll have to check out the HE-500 and HE-6 if they alleviate the lack of clarity in the LCD-2.  I feel the LCD-2s are pretty close, which makes me excited to think about how far orthos will go in the next 3-5 years.
 
I've heard the electrostat sound takes a bit to get used to, especially if you've only listened to dynamics your entire life.  I used to listen to music entirely through a DJing setup, and it took me awhile to appreciate clarity and get used to the lack of bass.  It seems like the amp makes a huge difference with the electrostats, so it makes me wonder whether SR-007s will sound tinny and lacking impact on anything short of a WA GES or KGSS.

Asynchronous USB is absolutely better than S/Pdif from a motherboard or basic soundcard like the Asus. Even pro audio cards from RME and Lynx have jitter on their digital outputs that FAR exceeds that of high quality asynch converters and DACs. Optical digital simply has no place in high-end audio. As for where to plug in your converter or USB DAC, you can plug it in directly to a motherboard USB port, but the best option would be the SoTM USB card.
 
If you're using a windows computer, an asynchronous DAC or converter will have a driver that installs, although I believe that some can work with up to 24/96 with native windows drivers. You just tell Foobar what the output device is, and have it operate in WASAPI exclusive mode. There will not be any need to touch any sort of audio control panel on the computer. Just about all of the asynch devices can now operate at 24/192, other than the ART Legato which is purposely limited to 16/44.
 
As for DACs, there are now quite a few on the market. The most affordable one I've seen is the Arcam rDAC at under $500, and you can go up from there to hyper expensive dCS stuff. At the $1-2K level, you should take a look at the Calyx, the W4S DAC-2, the Easter Electric Minimax Tube DAC MKII, the M2Tech Young DAC, and the Ayre QB-9.
 
If you're worried about future upgrades, check out the Empirical Overdrive. Empirical is really good about offering their latest upgrades to their existing customers, and not making them purchase a whole new product. The latest Overdrive is also supposed to sound incredible.
 
The other option is to use a USB to S/Pdif converter, such as the Empirical Off-ramp, Wavelength Wavelink, or Sonicweld Diverter 192, and then you can connect any DAC you want. I'm using a converter with an EAD DAC from the mid '90s. When new USB tech comes a long, that way all you have to replace is the converter, rather than the entire DAC.
 
As for amps, just about anything will work fine with the SR-507. The 007 deserves the best you can give it though. When I first heard it I thought it sounded great even out of the SRM-1 MK2 which is really the bare minimum amp you can possibly get away with. The better the amp though, the more it will reward you. If you want to buy the 007, I would suggest buying an SRM-323S to pair with it while you wait for a BHSE. The other option is to find a builder to make you a KGSSHV. The old KGSS is out of production, and the GES really isn't good enough.
 

 

[wind016]

Quote:

I don't listen to too much Lustmord these days, so I don't think too much of my music goes below that 35Hz... though, now I'm wondering how well the LCD-2s would treat my collection of cold meat (dark ambient) releases!
 
The DAC is something I'm very uncertain about.  Originally I just wanted to throw $1.5-5k at the problem, but I've lately been reading that async USB is superior to the S/PDIF output through integrated mobo audio or a sound card.  I thought any optical would get rid of all the annoying feedback that comes from a non-optimized system like the internals of a non-optimized PC (like how a USB sound card gets rid of the hum inherent to cheap Dell notebooks and office PCs).
 
Is the new recommended solution to get a DAC which supports async USB, and plug it in directly to a USB 3.0 port on my mobo?  I read that the newer DACs now involve driver and software installations, and you just manage your source through the DAC and the application's Win7/OSX interface.  It seems like you don't need any sort of sound card or integrated sound to use a PC as a source now?  Tbh, I'd be very happy to get rid of this Xonar DX, as I'm unhappy with ASUS and their mandatory Audio Center software which overrides the Win7 control panel.
 
If there are any good recommendations for async USB DACs (preferably up to 24/192), I'd be really appreciative.  The DAC is the one component I'm thinking it might be better to cap myself to $2k at, given how quickly the technology is still improving.
 

I'll have to check out the HE-500 and HE-6 if they alleviate the lack of clarity in the LCD-2.  I feel the LCD-2s are pretty close, which makes me excited to think about how far orthos will go in the next 3-5 years.
 
I've heard the electrostat sound takes a bit to get used to, especially if you've only listened to dynamics your entire life.  I used to listen to music entirely through a DJing setup, and it took me awhile to appreciate clarity and get used to the lack of bass.  It seems like the amp makes a huge difference with the electrostats, so it makes me wonder whether SR-007s will sound tinny and lacking impact on anything short of a WA GES or KGSS.

I will have a DIY KGSS to compare with my SRM 323s soon, which will probably be as expensive as I would get. I try to prioritize music over equipment and I look for the highest resolution and fatigue-free equipment I can. Plus, I don't have $5k for a BHSE.
 
The Stax O2 does not lack impact. I think it's a different feeling than that. There's plenty of impact from the bass, but the sound isn't thick and slow. The music is just there. Dynamics and orthos always make themselves known that the sound is coming out of drivers. Electrostats, on the other hand, sound as airy as air itself.
 

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

If you are considering orthos too, give Hifiman headphones a listen. If they lack something, it is not clarity. This Grado head loves his HE-5. Bass is good, treble is crystal clear (bit too pronounced actually, something HE-5LE fixed I heard). It lacks some weight in the midrange though. Thats why I am very interested in the new HE-500.

The HE500 doesn't have the sparkle you like... it's treble is a bit laid back, though not quite as much as the LCD-2. For me, the LCD-2 rev1 beats the HE500 out for Metal slightly, effectively making it my favorite Metal can of all time. 

 

[wind016]

Quote:

The HE500 doesn't have the sparkle you like... it's treble is a bit laid back, though not quite as much as the LCD-2. For me, the LCD-2 rev1 beats the HE500 out for Metal slightly, effectively making it my favorite Metal can of all time. 

When I heard the LCD 2, I thought it was dull as hell, bass specialist. The O2 was just more exciting. YMMV.
 

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

When I heard the LCD 2, I thought it was dull as hell, bass specialist. The O2 was just more exciting. YMMV.
 

Me too, remember my first impressions? Thought it was garbage.
 
Second time... nirvana. 

 

[Elysian]

Quote:

As for DACs, there are now quite a few on the market. The most affordable one I've seen is the Arcam rDAC at under $500, and you can go up from there to hyper expensive dCS stuff. At the $1-2K level, you should take a look at the Calyx, the W4S DAC-2, the Easter Electric Minimax Tube DAC MKII, the M2Tech Young DAC, and the Ayre QB-9.
 
If you're worried about future upgrades, check out the Empirical Overdrive. Empirical is really good about offering their latest upgrades to their existing customers, and not making them purchase a whole new product. The latest Overdrive is also supposed to sound incredible.
 

 
I'll look at reviews for all of those!  The one of those I'm familiar with is the W4S DAC-2, which seems to have quite a bit of controversy.  Are there any other quality DACs worth looking at?  I'd also be open to something that MSRPs at $2-4k, and would hunt around for a used model.  It seems like DACs generally don't decrease in quality over time, other than normal wear and tear on the components.
 
Quote:

Me too, remember my first impressions? Thought it was garbage.
 
Second time... nirvana. 

I originally was listening to the LCD2 on a Music Hall 25.2 and 25.3, and a JD-100A.  I wasn't too thrilled with the setup as a whole, but that might be due to the majority of experience being limited to solid-state.  We swapped out the 25.3 DAC with a Nuforce DAC9 which significantly improved the clarity of the sound and got rid of a fair bit of the muddyness, but it was still there.  I'd be curious to hear how the LCD2s and HE-500/HE-6 perform on a quality solid-state setup.  I might just not be used to tubes but I think the LCD2s would benefit from a setup that emphasizes black backgrounds, minimal distortion, and speed.