[Teletobi]

Hi y'all.
I just got myself a pair of Philips Fidelio X3 from the internet, without testing them somewhere before. They're my first headphones that cost more than €50. I bought them because of the many good reviews I found and because I got them for a good price.

When I first plugged them into the integrated headphone amp of my CD Player (Yamaha CDX 870), I was a bit underwhelmed tbh. I then tried the headphone out of my Yamaha AX 492 and that on my focusrite scarlet 2i2. Through all three hp amps available to me, the headphones' sound is inferior to that of my Canton LE 170 speakers in one specific regard: it's hard for me to hear the hits of a bass drum very precisely. It's the same with bass guitar and toms.The whole spectrum of low frequencies seems a bit muddled to me.

As opposed to that, I would describe the sound of a bass guitar or bass drum on my speakers as much dryer. Those speakers have a lot of bass, but it never sounds muted and the separation between instruments is better.

If I run the headphones through the AX 492 and use the eq to lower the bass a little bit, the sound improves regarding the described effect but I miss the bass a bit.

Now to my questions: Is this a general disadvantage of headphones compared to speakers?
Is it because my particular speakers are better than my headphones?
Is it possible I would prefer some other headphones (in the same price range)?
Could a dedicated headphone amp improve the sound in the specific regard described above?

The music I tested the headphones with includes:
Dire Straits – Brothers in Arms (particularly Money for Nothing)
Massive Attack – Heligoland (particularly Flat of the Blade, but the whole album is awesome in all regards)
Korn – Korn (specifically got this album out from under my bed to see how the headphones fare with it and it seemed to me they were a bit overwhelmed with fuzzy 7string guitars, a slapped 5string bass and the drums at the same time)
Amy Winehouse – Frank
Miles Davis – Kind of Blue (because that's what audiophiles seem to test stuff with. The trumpet blew my eardrums out, so there's no lack of high frequencies in the X3. The album sounds great on the headphones.

Note: These are all albums I actually like listening to (some more often than others) and not just music I used for testing. But Dire Straits, Amy Winehouse, and Massive Attack are the most important for me from the list.

One last thing: With the bass eq on -2 I have actually begun liking listening to the headphones a lot. It just doesn't compare to my speakers, but I had to get some headphones for the evenings, for the sake of my neighbours.

 

[barato]

Bass is where the biggest difference headphones and speakers exists, I don't think you'll ever get the same experience of a woofer moving large amounts of air with headphones but there are possibly other headphones that will give you a better experience.

Fostex/Denon are good for that kind of bass impact but expensive and probably not the best price/performance ratio.
You could try Audioquest nighthawk, they can found cheap enough on used market, they are use similar driver to the above and will have bass characteristic and performance on a similar, if not higher level. They have a very dark, bass oriented response that is polarising to many , but actually sounds like it might suit you.

Changing the electronics will at best give a little bit more refinement to bass, won't transform the experience or change the general character of the headphone's bass.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Hi y'all.
I just got myself a pair of Philips Fidelio X3 from the internet, without testing them somewhere before. They're my first headphones that cost more than €50. I bought them because of the many good reviews I found and because I got them for a good price.

When I first plugged them into the integrated headphone amp of my CD Player (Yamaha CDX 870), I was a bit underwhelmed tbh. I then tried the headphone out of my Yamaha AX 492 and that on my focusrite scarlet 2i2. Through all three hp amps available to me, the headphones' sound is inferior to that of my Canton LE 170 speakers in one specific regard: it's hard for me to hear the hits of a bass drum very precisely. It's the same with bass guitar and toms.The whole spectrum of low frequencies seems a bit muddled to me.

As opposed to that, I would describe the sound of a bass guitar or bass drum on my speakers as much dryer. Those speakers have a lot of bass, but it never sounds muted and the separation between instruments is better.

If I run the headphones through the AX 492 and use the eq to lower the bass a little bit, the sound improves regarding the described effect but I miss the bass a bit.

Now to my questions: Is this a general disadvantage of headphones compared to speakers?

There are differences between headphone and speaker systems, like

1. Speakers sending soundwaves all across the room also has the bass soundwaves all across the room as well as hitting your body, and that affects perception. Putting a mic on the same location as your head vis a vis speakers and your eardrums vis a vis speakers may register the same dB in much of the bass frequencies, but your perception of which is louder will be very different ie one lets you feel the bass drum kicking you in the chest. It's kind of like how some gaming systems use a chair that has similar tech to what you find on gaming controllers, or why people but bass shakers under their home theater seats, except instead of rocking you in an explosion on Gears of War or Mission Impossible, it's so the THUD THUD THUD!!! can more effectively rock you like a hurricane as you drive down the highway to hell (yes those are two different bands but whatever).

2. Noise being less intrusive with speakers. Short of the very, very, very black background amplifiers like something from Nelson Pass or Sugden or any of those high end fullrange Class D amps, what seems like a quiet system is actually very noisy. Crank it up a bit like how you would with your favorite tracks, hit play, then hit pause. Now walk over to the speakers. Chances are there's humming in there. Hell even my NAD304 has it, but that's a bit past where I set the volume level on most albums.

Headphones are closer to your ears ears than your driver s are but not all headphone amps guarantee that you can do this test and hear nothing even if they were designed specifically for the impedance and sensitivity of these drivers (let alone a CDP speaker amp that either has a daughterboard with an old Philips headphone driver chip in there that was probably designed in the 1980s or has a substandard way of converting the speaker amp output stage's output). Bottomline: a blacker background is far more critical to headphones than on speakers where the noise is on average lower than the ambient noise in most non-dedicated listening rooms (ie anywhere that has an open window and isn't isolated from other rooms, not necessarily one with extensive acoustic treatment).

And then there's the specific equipment used. I wouldn't call this a general disadvantage of a headphone vs speakers though but in your particular case you're using a high sensitivity headphone with amps/receivers that were designed primarily for speakers ie higher output with less care for noise with unknown headphone output design plus a CDP with the same sort of problem. A headphone with high sensitivity and low impedance has a tendency to get noise to come out and even if that seems inaudible to you if you do the pause+listen test it may have enough noise in there to get in the way of the bass. The other most likely issue: most speaker amps and CDPs tend to have a high output impedance on the headphone outputs. That may exacerbate the noise but the bigger problem is that once you're not maintaining an 8:1 ratio (it doesn't always need to be exact or beyond that) of load impedance to output impedance you lost damping factor, and when you lose damping factor, the bass just goes wonky. You either get a tin can as in your case here, or you can get the opposite and come out with a mudslide or molasses tidal wave of bass. Why? Because used to be more coils >> high impedance BUT also >> higher sensitivity. Borrow a 300ohm Sennheiser or 250ohm Beyerdynamic then run them on a good headphone amp vs what you have and chances are the loss in performance will not be as drastic.

On and about my NAD304: it also made my Grado SR225 and an AKG K701 I borrowed sound like tin cans. By contrast my high impedance OTL tube headphone amp still boosted the bass on my HD600, but really boosted the bass on the SR225 that it sounded like what cars that upgrade their audio systems using B-52 from car accessory stores (as opposed to dedicated car audio shops selling something like Digital Designs or Focal's mobile line or DLS (who also have a home audio line) sound like.

Is it because my particular speakers are better than my headphones?

In a sense yes but in your particular case it's not so much a matter of comparing a Lotus with supercharged Toyota engine to a Miata, but that you have the old MIata with the softer, lots of body roll suspension and then you replaced it with random parts that some auto parts store said would fit but it's basically just cheap shocks with cheap springs that aren't even the same spring rate (ie lower damping factor is a lot like having a really bad suspension, even if the chassis is otherwise decent if not better than just decent).

Is it possible I would prefer some other headphones (in the same price range)?

Possible, maybe. At that price range there are a lot of headphones

Guaranteed...not really, because while you can skirt around the impedance and power delivery issue by getting a high sensitivity, high impedance headphone like an HD650 or DT880 250ohm,

1. There are still inherent differences between how headphones and speakers work that can affect your perception

2. You're limited to these and...well...just these, practically. Maybe a couple other Beyers. Some others either have a fair bit lower sensitivity (HD600) or much higher impedance (T1) that while disortion and noise won't be a problem the power output can drop far enough you'd just crank it up and get noise and distortion (or not get enough volume outright).

3. How each headphone really sounds like with minimal performance loss due to the associated equipment still means your subjective preferences will come into play when choosing from the limited pool that can work acceptably with what you have right now.

Could a dedicated headphone amp improve the sound in the specific regard described above?
-----
One last thing: With the bass eq on -2 I have actually begun liking listening to the headphones a lot. It just doesn't compare to my speakers, but I had to get some headphones for the evenings, for the sake of my neighbours.

Given the EQ profile seems to get you there, then it's very likely an amp that won't have impedance issues will work. That's no guarantee you absolutely won't use the EQ then though.

If you decide to go this route the question will be how much you'd spend on the amp in terms of how much performance you'd like in terms of more power without piling on more distortion and noise. Your current headphones won't need a lot of power and practically any decent amp circuit (including portable ones, just not necessarily all of them, ie not all the ones that run off USB power will be great) will be enough in terms of power quantity and much of the quality issues will be addressed by such decent amps not having high output impedance. That said it might be wiser to over buy a bit just in case you want to try some other headphone later on and not have to wonder again at that point how it will do with a more powerful amp.

 

[Monsterzero]

It sounds to me like you could be dealing with a case of impedance mismatch. Best way to check is to try them in a mobile phone, or perhaps plug them into a gaming console's controller and see if you're still experiencing the same issues.

 

[Teletobi]

Bass is where the biggest difference headphones and speakers exists, I don't think you'll ever get the same experience of a woofer moving large amounts of air with headphones but there are possibly other headphones that will give you a better experience.

Fostex/Denon are good for that kind of bass impact but expensive and probably not the best price/performance ratio.
You could try Audioquest nighthawk, they can found cheap enough on used market, they are use similar driver to the above and will have bass characteristic and performance on a similar, if not higher level. They have a very dark, bass oriented response that is polarising to many , but actually sounds like it might suit you.

Changing the electronics will at best give a little bit more refinement to bass, won't transform the experience or change the general character of the headphone's bass.

Hey, thanks for your answer. Actually I don't think that a dark, bass oriented response is what I'm looking for. Like I said, I prefer the X3 with the bass eq on -2. To me they sound like they didn't have a lot of bass to start with but they have an eq of +2 bass built in, if that makes sense. I would always choose clarity over bombast. But the difference between speakers and headphones you describe makes sense to me. I feel like many headphones that I've listened to try to make up for their "lack of air movement" by just raising the lower frequencies.

 

[Teletobi]

It sounds to me like you could be dealing with a case of impedance mismatch. Best way to check is to try them in a mobile phone, or perhaps plug them into a gaming console's controller and see if you're still experiencing the same issues.

Thanks. I just checked that. My iphone 6s has an output impedance of 4.5 ohms. With the 30 ohms of the X3s that is roughly inside the 8:1 ratio suggested by ProtegeManiac but it doesn't solve the problem.

 

[Teletobi]

Thank you all for your replies. Besides the test with my phone (see above) I have also done the play/pause test suggested by ProtegeManiac. My speakers actually produce a slight bit of noise, which I can only hear, however, if I turn up the amp to a third of its max (which is louder than I would ever listen to it in the small room I've got) and put my ear very close to the speaker (which I would definitely not do while music is playing at that level ). On the headphones I actually can't hear any noise, even if I crank up the amp all the way.

By now, I think what I miss from the headphones is primarily due to reasons inherent to the difference between speakers and headphones and the sound profile of the X3s, which seems to raise the lower frequencies a bit (which I can solve with the eq). Over all, I could live with the sound I get from the X3s; its actually quite decent now that I've gotten accustomed to it, I think I just expected a bit too much. A bit more clarity/ a blacker background would be nice though, but I'm not sure if you can get that in the price range.

I might take the headphones to a Hifi store next week and ask if I can test them with a couple of different headphone amps and also test a number of headphones they have there. Then I can decide if I am happy with the sound I got for the 190 Euros I paid for them or if I want to upgrade my system via a dedicated headphone amp, or if I want to return them and get some other headphones instead (if I realise I will have to spend a bit more, I might come around to it, but I would prefer not to). Now I know what I'm looking for and what to look out for. I'll be happy to report my findings. Still, if anyone wants to comment anything in the meantime, keep it coming.

If I end up keeping all as it is, I can just appreciate the sound of my speakers even more every time it feels fair to have my neighbours participate in my listening experience and enjoy music over headphones at all other times. I never wanted to become an audiophile on a wild goose chase, but I guess it could happen . Only problem is I'm a student and I have to be reasonable about my money.

Btw: I have included 'MMM MMM MMM MMM' by the Crash Test Dummies into my testing . Not only does the band's name fit the purpose, I also really like the sound of this recording. The bass guitar is very crisp and the overall sound is not overloaded (besides other qualities).

 

[Kazej]

Headphones:- Pros: No need for treated room while in them. Can really focus on tiny details that are masked by reflections in a real room, kind of like a microscope. Cons: Lack of cross-talk between speakers, each ear is isolated (this can also be a benefit too I guess). Harder to drive the low end sometimes depending on the mixdown if making sub heavy music.

It's best to get both in the end. I would also get a grotbox style speaker to test the midrange. That's covering all bases. But if you don't have a good room, then lean to headphones first then work your way up. A great monitor system is diminished by poor room treatment.