[keith81]

I am a complete newb at this - wanted to get that out of the way in my first post.

The reason I'm here is because I tested some Sennheisers HD6-something headphones at Frankfurt airport and was completely BLOWN AWAY by what you guys refer to as "soundstage." I can't remember the exact model, but priced at 480 euros I knew I had to keep walking. You would say I auditioned those Sennheisers, but really I was just bored when my flight got delayed.

I thought I knew what excellent sound was... I use Sony MDR1A at the office (got them for 98 euros on Amazon Germany) and then to watch movies at night I use Monoprice 8323 with Brainwavz earpads - the pads were more expensive than the headphones. I still think they're brilliant for those purposes. But holy crap this "soundstage" was something else. Needless to say, I now want another pair for listening to music at home.

I spent the week reading endless reviews and threads on this forum. Half the time I was deciphering your jargon (imaging, impedence, ADs, SHPs, 600s, SRs, aaarrgghh). But eventually I understood that what I'm looking for is over-ear, open or semi-open headphones, with soundstage that is both wide AND deep.

Not a gamer, and I will use them to play soft/hard rock and classic metal at home off Spotify on my phone (I read my ZTE Axon 7 has a decent amp for a phone). I have no interest in getting a portable amp *Ducks for cover* sorry, I know this is sacrilege for you guys, but as I said, you're the audiophiles, I just want to make the most of the limited budget I have.

Since I can't afford Sennheiser 6 series, I made a list of options within my budget (less than 150 euros) which should be driven well enough by my phone. AKG K702 and Fostex T20rp were on it but I removed them when I found out they are too insensitive, despite the low impedence. Those that remained, in order of price:

• Superlux HD668B
• Philips SHP9500 (discontinued)
• Sennheiser HD598/HD599
• Audio Technica AD700x (no detachable cable is a big negative)
• Philips Fidelio X2/00 (I understand Amazon lowered its price because this model can have issues?)
• Beyerdynamic DT 990 Edition 32 Ohm (no detachable cable is a big negative)

So... my question for you is: all the above seem to have a wide soundstage, but is it also deep?

 

[Me x3]

Yes, but keep in mind this two things:
- Quality DAC/Amp is normally required for great soundstage.
- Quality recordigns are also needed.

I think HD598 and HD599 are pretty safe bets.

Fidelio X2 will give you a bigger bass and more luxurious built, pretty good headphone if you want that kind of sound
(more cinema-like than reference grade)

If you don't mind getting a headphone with analytical sound (unforgiving with less than perfect recordings) you might consider DT880 (250 Ohm) and K702. They will do slightly less than OK with your phone but less than OK with these headphones can be simiilar or even better than an inferior headphone properly driven. You can always upgrade your setup in the future.

 

[rredge]

I suspect that the shop at the Frankfurt airport was playing music through a system that is better than listening to Spotify streaming on a smartphone.

I’d like to suggest that you take your phone to a store that sells headphones and try various headphones, preferably with Spotify streaming, within your price range.

This way you’ll know what headphones, if any, work for you, given the limitations of Spotify streaming and the limitations of the digital to analogue converter in your phone.

Also consider that headphone jacks on phones are facing extinction.

 

[serman005]

I like the HD599 for you.

 

[Loz_the_guru]

I had a pair of HD598s as my first 'proper' headphones and think they're an excellent starting point. You should be able to pick them and a decent fiio dac/amp combo up for sub $150 used I'd imagine.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

The reason I'm here is because I tested some Sennheisers HD6-something headphones at Frankfurt airport and was completely BLOWN AWAY by what you guys refer to as "soundstage." I can't remember the exact model, but priced at 480 euros I knew I had to keep walking. You would say I auditioned those Sennheisers, but really I was just bored when my flight got delayed.

It doesn't really have much in the way of soundstage. Cymbals can still be too close to the ears for example, which, if you visualize a scaled down miniature band in your head, it's like th Fantaastic Four was the band and Reed Richards is showing off how long his arms can stretch. Or Doc Ock with two robot arms on the cymbals positioned at the flanks of the stage. That said, it's not as bad as, say, Grado's Prestige series, which really put the cymbals right by your ears.

Using Crossfeed (and maybe angled earpads) alleviates that too forward cymbals effect however Crossfeed moves the cymbals to a proportional location closer to the center, ie, if your band was made up of 3in tall people on a stage being imaged in front of your head, that's where the cymbals should be (Crossfeed also enhances the depth of the soundstage). Problem is a lot of people here interpret "proportionaity" as "narrow soundstage," and personally the HD6xx series does well enough on width, it just sucks with depth. Something like the K70x series does both equally well that placing the cymbals farther out to the flanks isn't a proportionality issue since, with Crossfeed, it doesn't put them too far forward either, ie, it's clearly behind where the vocals are along the Z-axis.

I spent the week reading endless reviews and threads on this forum. Half the time I was deciphering your jargon (imaging, impedence, ADs, SHPs, 600s, SRs, aaarrgghh). But eventually I understood that what I'm looking for is over-ear, open or semi-open headphones, with soundstage that is both wide AND deep.

As much as the HD6xx series isn't as good with presenting an expansive soundstage, I wouldn't immediately think that just about any other headphone that does a little better would impress you, or at least, perhaps not properly, given how often positional cues get misinterpreted (not to mention that, without Crossfeed, it's really going against physics; ie with speakers positional cues are really possible since both ears hear both speakers, albeit room reflections can then be a problem, hence heapphones and either Crossfeed or recordings mixed specifically for headphone playback with nearly all sounds filtered across both channels to simulate speakers in-room).

And the thing is though all the goals for sound reproduction - relatively flat response, wide response range, imaging, efficiency/sensitivity, development cost and retail pricing - are all going to tear a headphone in different directions. K70x would be best for not a lot of money, but the K701 rolls off the bass too early; and all these require a relatively good high current, low output impedance amp, so as cheap as the headphones are by now (includign the K7XX, although personally the angled earpads K702 are the best iteration), you'll end up spending on the amp (you can't even use a relatively cheap, used balanced drive amp, since these do not use dual side entry cables and thus will only be cheap if you can modify them yourself). At the same time even blowing a lot of money isn't going to get you every goal in a balanced matter, ie, the HD800 (and worse, the HD700) had treble peaks.

Not a gamer, and I will use them to play soft/hard rock and classic metal at home off Spotify on my phone (I read my ZTE Axon 7 has a decent amp for a phone). I have no interest in getting a portable amp *Ducks for cover* sorry, I know this is sacrilege for you guys, but as I said, you're the audiophiles, I just want to make the most of the limited budget I have.

Since I can't afford Sennheiser 6 series, I made a list of options within my budget (less than 150 euros) which should be driven well enough by my phone. AKG K702 and Fostex T20rp were on it but I removed them when I found out they are too insensitive, despite the low impedence. Those that remained, in order of price:

• Superlux HD668B
• Philips SHP9500 (discontinued)
• Sennheiser HD598/HD599
• Audio Technica AD700x (no detachable cable is a big negative)
• Philips Fidelio X2/00 (I understand Amazon lowered its price because this model can have issues?)
• Beyerdynamic DT 990 Edition 32 Ohm (no detachable cable is a big negative)

So... my question for you is: all the above seem to have a wide soundstage, but is it also deep?

If soundstage is the only concern best is the AD700X but again given what I wrote above there will be compromises in other areas, like the bass response (although this is better than the original AD700), and if your phone has a high output impedance, this will have flabby bass or undefined yet borderline inaudible bass.

For something that has a lot of low end and at the very least wouldn't be worse in imaging vs the HD600, there's the Fidelio X2, but bass can be too strong for some people (if you think the HD600 is just right, this might include you), however serviceability is a problem. Sony might sell expensive earpads for the MDR-1A but Phiips does not even sell replacement parts at all. You can buy a few third party pads for the X2 and the MDR-1A though, best for the money are Brainwavz (but look up YouTube guides on how to remove the old earpads and mount the new ones).

 

[keith81]

Thank you all for the insight. I learn more every day.

To answer some of your questions...

The X2's bass shouldn't be a problem for me since I like the bass-boosted sound of the MDR1A. Given your feedback I'll shortlist the X2, the HD598/599, and the AD700X.

Quality-wise I use the "very high" quality download setting on Spotify, whatever that is.

I found out now that, according to Forbes and Gadgethacks, my phone's audio playback is actually very good for a phone, comparable to the LG V20:
DAC 32-Bit AKM AK4490
Codec AKM AK4961 DSP
Amp Class-G Stereo
Max output 84dB
Signal-to-noise ratio 110dB
Stereo crosstalk -76.8dB
3.5mm Jack Voltage 1.8Volts
Frequency Response -0.10 to +0.05 Decibels

All mumbo jumbo to me - all I know is that it drives both the Sony MDR1A (48ohms & 105dB) and the Monoprice 8323 (40ohms & 100dB) very well. At 75-80% the volume level is very loud and the sound quality is good enough for me. But thanks to your advice I'll try those 3 headphones with my phone first before buying. I gather in such a situation the easiest one to drive might actually win against a better pair of cans.

PS I'll have to google what Crossfeed is.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

PS I'll have to google what Crossfeed is.

Like I said above, it filters some of the sound across both channels so headphones will be less like headphones, ie, one ear hears only one driver, and more like speakers, ie, both ears hear both drivers, except it has to be done judiciously otherwise you end up listening in mono and not get any sense of positional cues at all.

If you want a more technical explanation, here's a web page tht also comes in print format with Meier amps: http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm

I found out now that, according to Forbes and Gadgethacks, my phone's audio playback is actually very good for a phone, comparable to the LG V20:
DAC 32-Bit AKM AK4490
Codec AKM AK4961 DSP
Amp Class-G Stereo
Max output 84dB
Signal-to-noise ratio 110dB
Stereo crosstalk -76.8dB
3.5mm Jack Voltage 1.8Volts
Frequency Response -0.10 to +0.05 Decibels

Apart from the extremely high crosstalk there's this one where the response has that spike, although obviously since this is measured with a headphone it's hard to tell how much it altered that headphone (unless that was already accounted and corrected in the curve below). You need to look at other graphs from GSMArena and check how other phones perform on that graph (although if the LG Vxx looks like that I won't be surprised that people like the sound - it's like a Grado Prestige series response curve below 150hz).

 

[keith81]

If you want a more technical explanation, here's a web page tht also comes in print format with Meier amps: http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm

Very interesting thanks for sharing.