[jaieger]

Hey, I was just wondering...
 
 
when people talk about 'phones with awesome soundstage, they're often like, "it's like so-and-so band is right infront of me/in the room with me/etc.!" And while I do think neither of my gear is particularly lacking in spaciousness, I'm having some trouble imaging it in my head, because though intuitively I would think that it would look like this:
 
 DDDD
G B G
    V
 
 
    M
 
D= drums, G= guitars, B= bass guitar V = vocals  M = me (in terms of left/right, that's pretty consistent with what I'm picturing.)
But alot of th etime, there're drums/cymbals that are really close to me, right next to me, or even behind me some, which leads me to think that my songs are from the drummer seat's point, so it's like...

DMD
DDD
G B G
   V
 
but doesn't this mean that the soundstage is really narrow/short? Is it sposed to sound like that, image-wise, or is it the file/my gear? Most of my files are 320 or lossless, so..
 
 

 

[mvw2]

For me, an earphone with a good sound stage is one that can first and foremost put a sound in a specific location in space.  A sound should exist in a spot, something more so than just audibly existing.  Second, a good sound stage should have a good sense of depth and direction.  The space in which these sounds exist should be well space in the sense that you can decipher direction, distancing, and space between sounds.  An earphone with a very good sound stage should be capable of being relatively linear in the stage presentation, not everything up in your face, not everything a hundred feet from you, not everything in front of you or everything far left and right, but rather sounds should be placed both in pan front left to right as well as depth.  Close is close, far is far, and 30 degrees left is 30 degrees left.  I'll say very, very few earphones do sound stage well.  Most are off in some way and don't convey a good sense of space.  Many earphones are poor at sound stage all together and can't or can very barely convey any sense of location at all.  Even some very good earphones suck at sound stage.  For example, the well liked RE0 is terrible at creating any sense of location beyond a rough left, right, and center.  The uber IE8 has a big sound stage but lacks a sense of depth and proximity.  Everything is just far away and there is a minimal sense of layering and space in between sounds.  The SE530 is outstanding at locational cues in the sense that a sound exists in an exact spot in space exceptionally clearly.  However, the location in which the sound exists is largely wrong.  For example, one particular song I listened to the SE530 made the drummer sound as if he was placed in front of the singer.
 
It would also be useful to note that perceiving the accuracy of the sound stage of a particular earphone is somewhat hard to do without proper test material.  A lot of music is heavily mixed and simply don't carry good sound stage information.  Many songs may record each individual separately in a sound booth only to have each pieced together later.  Bands tend to have mic pickups right at the instruments, so there won't be a sense of depth.  Some of the better recordings are the older albums of bands, smaller time bands, live venues, etc., anything that would have the sound recorded more from one point as a collective.  You can pick up the size of the room and placement of the people or the cheering crowd in a live venue.  There are also premade test tracks used for competitions and synthesized tests like the virtual barbershop that purposely convey specific locational cues.

 

[Napilopez]

I agree completely with the above.
 
I used to think a big spacious soundstage was all there is to a good soundstage. My HJE900s have proven that wrong, for me. Their soundstage can be quite wide at its max, but most of the sound is concentrated closer, giving it an intimate feel. Yet their separation and positioning is so good compared to past headphones I've owned and heard, their soundstage is clearly better. Things sound naturally positioned, and I can separate instruments very clearly. As Joker once described, soundstaging with them is almost hologram-like.
 
It is indeed very recording dependent though. Personally, I find many jazz tracks and old-school heavy metal recordings to have great soundstaging recording. Only specific one coming to mind right now is "Whole Lotta Love" by Led Zeppelin though. Many modern popular songs are so lax about their soundstaging, it makes me sad =[. I actually find the soundstage/imaging of many MONO tracks to be better than some modern recordings lolz. Obviously I don't have the left/right cues, but instrument separation sometimes feels more natural and I can get a sense of depth.

 

[mrkesu]

Nvw2, can you give me an example of iem with a very good soundstage?

 

[mvw2]

Good is a bit relative.  People seek different things.  Some folks prefer a big, spacious sound.  Others like an intimate experience.  Pinpoint placement of sounds are not necessary for a lot of people.  The amount of layering and separate varies.  A lot of what it means to be good does depend upon what you want to hear.  I feel there are trade-offs with certain goals.  Also not all earphones do everything well.
 
Some examples in no particular order:
ER4S
Custom 3
UM3X
SE530
RE252
CK10
C751
SA6
IE8
Triple.Fi 10
Eterna
Ok1 (bud)
 
Although they sound completely different from each other and the stage presentation varies considerably between each.  They do however do certain things well and have their own various mixes of traits.  Transparency of sound is a very big deal when it comes to sound stage.  You don't want to hear the earphone playing the music.  It's helpful to not even feel the earphone playing either.  Low distortion is also important in the sense that the sounds are coherent and separated.  You don't want messiness/muddiness in the sound or things tend to blend somewhat.  Dynamic linearity is important in emphasis in sound and distancing.  Frequency response is important for tonality and having the mind correctly decipher the tone to a place.
 
A good question to ask yourself is what type of presentation do you seek?  What do you want to hear and how would you like this to be presented?

 

[elfary]

Reliving a quite old (yet really useful) thread i'd like to know what's the difference between soundstage and instrument separation since i tend to think that any separation of anything would need space which would lead to a large soundstage. In another words i find hard to understand how would do sound an iem (UM3X) which is great at separating instruments but at the same time makes for a really narrow soundstage.
 
I can't quite understand it. Any education on this would be really appreciated.

 

[TheGame21x]

Quote:

Reliving a quite old (yet really useful) thread i'd like to know what's the difference between soundstage and instrument separation since i tend to think that any separation of anything would need space which would lead to a large soundstage. In another words i find hard to understand how would do sound an iem (UM3X) which is great at separating instruments but at the same time makes for a really narrow soundstage.
 
I can't quite understand it. Any education on this would be really appreciated.

 
Well, as best as I understand it, soundstage has more to do with positioning of the vocalists and the instruments within it giving you a sense of "being there" to an extent and making you feel like the instruments are coming from outside your head rather than from a pair of headphones/earphones and instrument separation has to do with the sense of "air" or space between the sounds of various instruments within that stage so everything doesn't sound like the instruments are so close together.
 

 

[elfary]

Thanks for the insight. Now i'll try to understand it in full but i can see some light about the issue.

 

[wilyodysseus]

Your source can also make a huge difference in soundstage. My 740c provided one of those wow/night-and-day/didn't know what I'd been missing moments for me, soundstage-wise. Instrument placement is more precise, there's more air/space around the instruments, and the soundstage is wider. The effect is less dramatic on some tracks than other, but Bach's Mass in B Minor, for example, suddenly sounded like is was in a cathedral-sized space. 

 

[elfary]

Thanks again folks. After all what i was trying to figure out was how does would fare the UM3X soundstage/instrument separation against my SE420. Thus i thought that it might be really educating to learn exactly what the terms soundstage / instrument separation really stand for. It's a really interesting subject.
 
In spite of some holes in my wallet i'd really appreciate what this community has taught me. It just showed me how to listen and enjoy the music. And still learning.

 

[Danz03]

Depends on how a piece of recording is recorded and mixed, with most modern recordings, including some classical recordings, the soundstage is mostly artificial. Most or all of the instruments heard on a CD were recorded with separate microphones, usually in mono in a dead room with no room reverberation. Then they are panned across the L-R channels with added artificial reverbs. The mix between the dry signal and the wet reverb signal will somehow give an illusion of depth and space (the soundstage). So unlike a real surround sound system, there is really no such thing as an accurate soundstage with stereo recordings listening with stereo headphones (except special recordings made with dummy heads). So if you like big soundstage, just go for the ones that can produce that, but big doesn't mean accurate. With instrument separation, I guess it would be the positions of where all the panned instruments are within the L-R channels. 

 

[goodvibes]

I agree with that and look only for specificity of placement which should happen if the phone is clear and accurate in other ways but don't worry about the size of the window. It can still be extremely 'open' sounding without a very wide perspective.