Sound Science Corner Pub

Mar 27, 2025 at 7:02 AM Post #886 of 913
As @gregorio already pointed out, what does set Head-Fi apart is that discussion of psychoacoustics, and with it some aspects and practices of sound science as well as engineering facts have been banned to the Sound Science forum where it stays out of sight of the majority of the Head-Fi membership.
That doesn’t set Head-Fi apart, there is at least one other site (and I believe several) that do the same, they completely ban any mention of DBTs from the whole site. In fact, Jude (the founder of Head-Fi) actually stated that the ban he was implementing was based on the same DBT ban implementation of another audiophile site. I don’t recall which site off the top of my head, maybe @castleofargh does?

Interestingly, psychoacoustics has always been the bane of the audiophile world and even when it wasn’t outright banned it was typically just dismissed or actively discredited. Going back to that inaugural edition of “The Audio Critic” is enlightening in this regard too. Take this statement: “Mark, a circuit designer himself, flatly asserted that all pre-amps sound alike, from the two transistor phono circuit in the GE transistor manual to the most elaborate audio freak unit money can buy, as long as certain conditions are met.” (exact volume matching and certain other condition). This demonstrates a few interesting things: First of all, that yet again, something we are asserting today was actually the case even half a century ago, let alone with today’s technology. Secondly, that some people in the science community were still engaging with the audiophile world back in 1977. The “Mark” making that assertion was Mark Davis, the then head of the psychoacoustics department at MIT! Thirdly, “The Audio Critic”, as the name vaguely implies, was invented to give honest opinions based on the facts, rather than the marketing inspired BS of all the other publications of the day. Yet even The Audio Critic still got it entirely wrong quite often because they were subject to some of the same “subjectivist myths” we still see today. The article goes on to discredit Mark Davis’ assertion on the basis that maybe his Hi-Fi test equipment wasn’t revealing enough, his DBTs were not done over weeks/months and that maybe his test subjects weren’t experienced or golden-eared enough, where have we heard all that before? Interestingly though, many years later the editor came around, after being involved in the Carver Challenge and other DBTs he came to understand what DBTs actually were, their efficacy and acceptance as the gold standard of listening testing. At roughly the same time as some other audiophile publications were just starting to try to discredit them.
You can interpret that two ways:
  • Discussions on these matters invariably turn heated and the admins want the majority (rest) of Head-Fi to remain a pleasant environment
  • Psychoacoustics and scientific and engineering facts get in the way of sponsors promoting their 'innovations'
The admins would obviously point to the former, whereas IMO study of past and present moderation suggests the latter is an important factor also.
Yes, they do point to the former, however that’s a nonsense argument. Sure, if you ban any mention of science then there can’t be any argument based on the facts/science BUT you could achieve exactly the same thing the other way around, if you banned assertions of fact based only on unsupported subjective opinions/impressions. For example, someone states a silver cable affects the sound. There could be arguments for or against that assertion on the basis of someone else’s opinion or impressions but not on the basis of science. The other way around would be arguments for or against that assertion on the basis of the science but not on the basis of unsupported subjective opinions/impressions. Both ways reduce or eliminate arguments but the latter “gets in the way of the sponsors/advertisers” and all the audiophile myths, hence why they chose the former, despite the fact that the latter has the benefit of honesty and of not deliberately misleading your membership!
I stumbled on this the other day while looking for decent information on A/B testing - have you ever heard so much rubbish trying to justify the use of sighted listening comparisons
Unfortunately I have. I didn’t watch the whole video but there was nothing in what I did see that was new, I’ve heard it all before, although not necessarily all at the same time!
The sad thing is that my background is engineering and I still fell for a bunch of the BS around.
A background in engineering would certainly help, just in terms of how you would evaluate information/marketing in general. Without a background in the specific engineering field though, that’s only going to somewhat help you. And that’s the rub, all of us have been caught out on occasion, even those of us in the audio engineering field because very few, if any, have enough knowledge in all the applicable engineering fields. Audio engineering covers or at least touches on a whole host of general and specialist engineering fields; software engineering, hardware engineering, acoustic engineering, music engineering, sound engineering, electrical engineering and then different specialist engineering within those fields; filter design, clocking, chip design, plugins and other DSP design, network engineers, different types/genres of music engineers and of sound engineers, etc., not to mention the whole field of psychoacoustics that so affects the work of music and sound engineers.

While the really crazy audiophile stuff doesn’t fly with audio engineers, there’s still BS in the pro audio world and we are still sometimes caught out by it. The main difference is that it usually doesn’t last for long, the BS pseudoscience or false implication/assertion is typically discovered and disseminated relatively quickly. You generally don’t find myths/falsehoods lasting decades as we so commonly see in the audiophile community.

G
 
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Mar 27, 2025 at 11:59 AM Post #887 of 913
It was audioasylum, but I only know because someone else recently linked the post talking about it.
 
Mar 27, 2025 at 1:13 PM Post #888 of 913
People who prefer intuition are critical and notice logical inconsistencies. They recognise conmen easily. On the other hand they might be physically clumsy, suffer from sensory overload (lights are too bright on the eyes, sounds are too loud on the ears, water is too cold on the skin etc.) These people may live more inside their heads than in reality and appear introverted and even absent-minded.

I used to love watching Peter Falk as Columbo.


I thought this tweeter sounded really good, until the grill fell out 🧐

Tweeter.jpg
 
Mar 28, 2025 at 1:38 AM Post #891 of 913
Mar 28, 2025 at 9:01 AM Post #892 of 913
I thought this tweeter sounded really good, until the grill fell out 🧐

Tweeter.jpg
Hahah! :dt880smile: Fake tweeters are very common in cheap audio products. If the woofer has chrome-painted dust cap you know the woofer does treble also, but here the dust cap is painted black. Anyway, the price range of the speakers is a good indication whether the tweeter is real or just cosmetic placebo.
 
Mar 28, 2025 at 2:11 PM Post #893 of 913
While the really crazy audiophile stuff doesn’t fly with audio engineers, there’s still BS in the pro audio world and we are still sometimes caught out by it. The main difference is that it usually doesn’t last for long, the BS pseudoscience or false implication/assertion is typically discovered and disseminated relatively quickly. You generally don’t find myths/falsehoods lasting decades as we so commonly see in the audiophile community.

I hope that's the case, but even there I see people arguing about speaker design and the science behind it, just to name one thing.

I'll open a tangent, but there's a guy I found on YT saying that all small speaker designs suffer from time domain distortions in the lower frequencies, and that if you want good bass you need a gigantic speakers. Specifically he says that ported and passive resonator designs have this problem and that only transmission lines that are 1/4 of the wave length of the frequency car properly reproduce it without time domain distortion. Maybe this would merit creating a new thread on here. I'd love to know more about it from people who know what they're talking about.
 
Mar 29, 2025 at 8:07 AM Post #894 of 913
Maybe we need to find ways to push our scientific views to others in a more pleasant ways?

Maybe just state them calmly and let others either accept or reject them considering it is ultimately a selling site you know you're going to get lots of opposition, getting worked up and frustrated will just disturb your wa. What more can you do?
 
Mar 29, 2025 at 8:10 AM Post #895 of 913
I hope that's the case, but even there I see people arguing about speaker design and the science behind it, just to name one thing.

I'll open a tangent, but there's a guy I found on YT saying that all small speaker designs suffer from time domain distortions in the lower frequencies, and that if you want good bass you need a gigantic speakers. Specifically he says that ported and passive resonator designs have this problem and that only transmission lines that are 1/4 of the wave length of the frequency car properly reproduce it without time domain distortion. Maybe this would merit creating a new thread on here. I'd love to know more about it from people who know what they're talking about.
Speaker design is about compromises. Perfect speaker is impossible. Small speakers struggle with bass while large speakers struggle with being coherent point sources. Sealed speakers are better with time domain distortions than ported speakers, but may sound anaemic (lacking bass) in comparion. Making a ported speaker's bass response be fourth order Bessel high pass filter (abbreviated BE4) gives the flattest possible group delay which means the least time domain distortion. However this doesn't give the flattest bass response. For that the choice is Butterworth alingment, but then you have more time domain issues as a tradeoff.

time domain distortion at bass frequencies is not the one and only property a speaker has to excel at. In reality any speaker is a compromise between many many aspects from price to size to performance in a particular room setting.
 
Mar 29, 2025 at 4:20 PM Post #896 of 913
I'll open a tangent, but there's a guy I found on YT saying that all small speaker designs suffer from time domain distortions in the lower frequencies,


I figure that is the AP Mastering YouTube channel?, he appears to have created that video to drive business towards his speaker design/construction. Like so many of these YouTube shills they employ a modicum of science and engineering sensibility that is entirely agreeable then inflate whatever reasoning they began with into a click bait monster to drive interactions and arguments/discussions.
 
Mar 29, 2025 at 4:46 PM Post #897 of 913
I hope that's the case, but even there I see people arguing about speaker design and the science behind it, just to name one thing.
I didn’t say there wasn’t arguments/disagreements, just that the pro audio world was not so prone to much of the audiophile BS. As 71dB effectively stated, once we get to speakers/HPs, we’re not dealing with just the maths of digital audio or the physics of an electrical signal, we’re now also dealing with both the laws of motion; friction, rigidity, mass, inertia, etc as well as all the issues of acoustic sound waves from the transducer’s driver and enclosure, and of each individual room in the case of speakers. It’s a highly inefficient process, there’s always trade offs and always a lot to discuss/disagree about. That’s not so much the case with the ADC and DAC process or with amps, cables, etc.

G
 
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Mar 29, 2025 at 5:26 PM Post #898 of 913
I figure that is the AP Mastering YouTube channel?, he appears to have created that video to drive business towards his speaker design/construction. Like so many of these YouTube shills they employ a modicum of science and engineering sensibility that is entirely agreeable then inflate whatever reasoning they began with into a click bait monster to drive interactions and arguments/discussions.
He has some much better videos addressing other audio topics, but the studio speaker video that was clearly made to sell his own speaker design has not been his strongest moment.
 
Mar 31, 2025 at 4:17 PM Post #899 of 913
I figure that is the AP Mastering YouTube channel?
Yup, that's it.
He has some much better videos addressing other audio topics, but the studio speaker video that was clearly made to sell his own speaker design has not been his strongest moment.
Yeah, I was pulled in from the other content that seemed very reasonable.

But thanks for the additional explanation on the topic of speaker design. I realize this adds a whole lot of variables to the mix, as both 71 dB and gregorio pointed out. :)
 
Mar 31, 2025 at 7:15 PM Post #900 of 913
I used to love watching Peter Falk as Columbo.


I thought this tweeter sounded really good, until the grill fell out 🧐


Goodness gracious, I have that 2.1 set of Logitech speakers as well (even twice... they gave me a budget of XXX€ to spend on anything I wanted from their site due to an Ultimate Ears warranty case when they stopped making IEMs and therefore didn't have any spare ones, so I went with some PC stuff and as I still hadn't used up the entire budget, those speakers, already knowing that they wouldn't sound any good and that they don't have a real tweeter as that was clear to me from the tech specs, were what I picked).
However I already knew what I was dealing with before I got them, but took that fake tweeter out anyway because I was curious to see whether there were a hole behind it or not. I'm not using them anyway, though (pair one was stripped out of curiosity and then dumped, the other one is rotting (not literally, though, it's in near-mint condition) away in the basement and I couldn't bother to put them up for sale/grabs yet).

Anyway, they sound quite muffled with at best mediocre extension up top, and in my opinion are massively overpriced for the original price, and still not (even remotely) worth the money at the lower street price. Even for their entry-level class, they sound muffled and lack details. In all honesty, and not to offend anyone who actually likes them, I would personally only use them if there were no other sound reproduction options around at all, since they are even inferior to many laptop and built-in mobile phone speakers in terms of highs extension and general details. ✌🏻
 
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