Sound Science Corner Pub

[71 dB]

thanks for the info....i am throwing away my records right now.

Do what you want, but I listen to a lot of musically empty music too and enjoy it a lot. I'm just honest to myself and acknowledge that I enjoy Kesha's music for it's entertaining values, not because it's as sophisticated art as J.S. Bach's Mass in B minor, because it isn't. Kesha is just smart and talented enough to make her musically empty music catchy, uplifting, inspiring and entertaining. That hold's true for all quality pop music.

Whoa, why the completely uncalled for shot at metal? Musically empty?! 'Cmon man, as a lover of classical you should know that sub-genres of metal are the closest you'll get to classical in modern music. And I'll take a well recorded/produced and dynamic metal album over a Schiitty one any day of the week. The difference is night and day, and not subtle in the slightest, to put it in audiophile terms. But seriously though.

edit: fixed it castleofargh

My shot at metal should not affect your enjoyment of your favorite music. If it does, I hope you can improve your self-confidence. I am not an expert of metal so I don't comment on your claims. If musically rich sub-genres exist then my "shot" does not concern them.

Yeah, metal does get a bad rap for no reason. The musicianship and compositions are often pretty accomplished, even if you don't care for the aesthetics.

If we want to hate on any musical genres, let's pick something we can all agree objectively sucks like Avicii or Zedd.

People keep saying metal is sophisticated and classical-like, but I fail to hear it. Maybe I have heard the wrong metal? That's not to say people can't enjoy metal. It's just being honest to yourself. I enjoy so much "silly" and simple music these days that it would be stupid to justify it by complexity of the music. No, I enjoy some silly music because it achieves very well the purpose it was done for: Entertain, being uplifting etc.

Imo music closest to classical music include music for films and orchestrated jazz.

I dislike most Avicii I have heard, but Iike a few of his tracks, e.g. Lonely Together ft. Rita Ora
Zedd's music is nice, but not 100 % honed in imo.

That's my opinion and it doesn't matter if this music sucks or doesn't suck objectively. I listen to it subjectively.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

How are they similar? I hear complex musical and harmonic structures and a wide range of time signatures in classical music. In heavy metal I hear the same four chords, basic verse-chorus-verse-chorus, and 4/4 time just about all the time. I'm trying to figure out what makes it like classical music. Just curious.

Is there a heavy metal equivalent of the "Tristan Chord" or a structural thing like symphonic movements or variations on a theme like the Diabelli Variations? Is there a variety of tonal color and orchestration like the difference between Debussy and Rimsky-Korsakoff? I guess I can kind of see ornamentation and improvisation like in Mozart in guitar solos, but that isn't unique to heavy metal. That is part of Jazz and the Blues too.

I think every generation tries to horrify their parents with harder and faster music,some of it works, some not so much...classical music was likely veiwed as pretty outrageous stuff in its infancy.I think most forms of music have something to offer given a chance.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

How is heavy metal like classical music? I had a metal head friend play me some heavy metal that had an "operatic" lead singer. It sounded more like a cartoon version of a bad operatic singer.

Xanadu by Rush is 11 minutes of rock meets classiical...lyrics are also a classic poem by Samuel Taylor coleridge..5 min lead in...give it a chance...then mock me if you must...might be too complex for 1 listen.

 

[b0ck3n]

Prog rock has some great examples. Rush has been mentioned, I also very much enjoy the earlier works of Porcupine Tree.

As for metal/classical there are two very on the nose picks: Dream Theater and, to an even greater extent, Symphony X (I'd term the latter neo-classical shred metal). Metal, like classical, employ technical rhythms, arpeggios is a staple, and very often it's noteworthy how metal has been inspired by different works of classical in terms of melodic scales used. I'm a sucker for symphonic, be it classical/cinematic or metal, and symphonic metal is often as complex and layered as its classical counter-part. There are ofcourse dumbed down iterations that work very well too, Horror Show by Iced Earth comes to mind.

I love jazz influences in music - take How Much a Dollar Cost by Kendrick Lamar for example. Great hip hop utilizes technical lyrical rhythms and irregular time signatures, much like classical, for that matter. No one should be surprised that classical music has influenced all music so heavily, as it's so technically accomplished. The Planets by Gustav Holst, entry level classical in my opinion, has influenced TONS of works that span pretty much all genres.

But bigshot, if you would indulge me, try giving The Turning by Symphony X a listen.

edit: Emperor is a good example of symphonic black metal, heavily influenced by classical symphonies, although nowhere near as technically accomplished and, to be blunt, the production is often awful.

 

[71 dB]

Prog rock has some great examples.

King Crimson

 

[Whazzzup]

Genesis, yes, elo, supertramp...some more than others

 

[bigshot]

Do you folks listen to a lot of classical music? Because I'm aware of a lot of the stuff you're talking about and the similarities to classical music is very much on the surface. Classical music has a carefully organized structure. I've seen prog rock that uses a cello or flute and prog rock that is bombastic and pretentious. But I've never seen any that is actually composed like classical music. Even if they use a symphony orchestra like Rick Wakeman or Procol Harem, it's still either free form noodling or standard rock song structure. It's more like orchestral movie soundtracks than classical music. An analogy would be like the difference between a large house designed as a large house by an architect, and a small house that has a lot of add-ons to be large. One has an overall structure. The other is just big.

 

[bfreedma]

Do you folks listen to a lot of classical music? Because I'm aware of a lot of the stuff you're talking about and the similarities to classical music is very much on the surface. Classical music has a carefully organized structure. I've seen prog rock that uses a cello or flute and prog rock that is bombastic and pretentious. But I've never seen any that is actually composed like classical music. Even if they use a symphony orchestra like Rick Wakeman or Procol Harem, it's still either free form noodling or standard rock song structure. It's more like orchestral movie soundtracks than classical music. An analogy would be like the difference between a large house designed as a large house by an architect, and a small house that has a lot of add-ons to be large. One has an overall structure. The other is just big.

I agree that most of the examples given equate bombast with classical, but there are a few albums/songs that fit into some of the classical structural elements including recurring themes and instrumental representations of protagonists. Given the different scope of the instruments and typical size/scale of the band/orchestra, the genres rarely truly overlap. Probably the best example I can think of where the structure and thematic recurrence is similar to classical is the alternate version of "The Sky Moves Sideways" on the Porcupine Tree album of the same name. At over 35 minutes, there is a set structure, recurring themes, and instrumental representation of characters.

Not claiming it's classical, but structurally, I do think there is reasonable alignment. I can think of a few others, but if you don't find that example works for you, then the others likely won't either.

If you can add a little more detail to what you think constitutes Classical, it would help. "Carefully organized structure" leaves a lot of wiggle room for interpretation. If, for example, one criteria is "must have oboe", then I probably won't have much to offer....

 

[bigshot]

I meant structure as in four movements in a symphony with specific types of movements in a specific order- allegro, adagio, scherzo, presto for a symphony. Also Internal structure of movements like sonata form, or combinations of parts like introduction, exposition, development/variations, recapitulation and coda, depending on the form of the movement. I'm looking at basic compositional theory. I don't think I've ever heard that in prog rock. It seems that with prog rock it's either structured exactly the same as a rock song, the same 4/4 as most popular music, except with an orchestra backing the band ... or prog rock is through composed in an unstructured evolutionary mutation. That kind of structure feels like background music to me. It doesn't engage my brain with its structure. It's more like a ride at Disneyland. Genesis's Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and Pink Floyd albums meander through that sort of thing. It boils down to "stuff happens and then something different happens".

I suppose the closest I've heard rock music get to classical music is the instrumentals of Frank Zappa where he constructs Chinese puzzle boxes of contrasting time signatures, timbre, and structure like the avant garde 20s Russian and French composers sometimes did. I can listen to stuff like that in the same way as I listen to classical- with my brain turned on seeing how the pieces all fit together in an organized way. The Porcupine Tree album you mention sounds like Peter and the Wolf or Carnival of the Animals with a programmatic structure. That's similar to stuff like Rick Wakeman's Journey to the Center of the Earth. It tells a story, but to me, it's more like a film score where the music is illustrating a specific story, or a rock opera- which to me don't really resemble a real opera at all!

I'm trying to explain, but I might just be digging a deep hole here.

 

[castleofargh]

in that respect I am a basic music consumer, the really ignorant kind. "me like" is as far as I go when it comes to subjectivity. I have outstandingly no curiosity or interest in who, how, why? and most people go mad because of how I shuffle everything and make playlists without any regard for genres, speed, instruments.... TBH I couldn't sort things by genre on my own(well I could read the online tags) beyond a vague rap/rock/classical/and what I keep calling "techno" no matter what it is. I approach music like I do food. as long as I like it, I don't care what's in it^_^. the artist can commit crime against humanity, if I enjoy the song, I'll keep listening to it without a second thought. my brain doesn't seem to care for more than "me like" or "blurghhh".
but about having an elaborate and complete piece like with something like an opera, I may be full of crap, but I get the feeling that art right now is often re-purposed as a boredom fighter. it affects how long something can be and how long we can afford to make a silence last. I feel it in movies too. as more and more people will "disengage" if something takes too long to happen, the events are hurried up and lined up in short sequences that can stand alone and still do something. that alone would change the way we think music.
having music available anywhere we go has also certainly changed the way we look at it IMO. putting on a vinyl as a kid was like a religious ceremony and we had to go sit in the special places at grandma's house or my uncle would come explaining again how there is a place for sound. and we would stop doing whatever we were doing to actively listen. now I push a button and if music doesn't start on my DAP or phone in the next second while I'm walking out the door, I get impatient ^_^. the world has changed.
I still have times where I put everything down and just listen to music half an hour, but I don't know if I do it because I was raised into it or because it really makes sense to do it. in a generation where even to take a dump people get bored and go on the web with their phones, I wonder if just listening to music for an hour is really still something viable. which begs the question, should artists still create for such duration?

 

[b0ck3n]

bigshot I was mainly looking for music inspired by classical, and similarities that I agree are on the surface. As for classical music with all the instruments exchanged to fit a different genre, I don't have an example (but if someone else does I would love to give it a listen).

 

[Glmoneydawg]

I meant structure as in four movements in a symphony with specific types of movements in a specific order- allegro, adagio, scherzo, presto for a symphony. Also Internal structure of movements like sonata form, or combinations of parts like introduction, exposition, development/variations, recapitulation and coda, depending on the form of the movement. I'm looking at basic compositional theory. I don't think I've ever heard that in prog rock. It seems that with prog rock it's either structured exactly the same as a rock song, the same 4/4 as most popular music, except with an orchestra backing the band ... or prog rock is through composed in an unstructured evolutionary mutation. That kind of structure feels like background music to me. It doesn't engage my brain with its structure. It's more like a ride at Disneyland. Genesis's Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and Pink Floyd albums meander through that sort of thing. It boils down to "stuff happens and then something different happens".

I suppose the closest I've heard rock music get to classical music is the instrumentals of Frank Zappa where he constructs Chinese puzzle boxes of contrasting time signatures, timbre, and structure like the avant garde 20s Russian and French composers sometimes did. I can listen to stuff like that in the same way as I listen to classical- with my brain turned on seeing how the pieces all fit together in an organized way. The Porcupine Tree album you mention sounds like Peter and the Wolf or Carnival of the Animals with a programmatic structure. That's similar to stuff like Rick Wakeman's Journey to the Center of the Earth. It tells a story, but to me, it's more like a film score where the music is illustrating a specific story, or a rock opera- which to me don't really resemble a real opera at all!

I'm trying to explain, but I might just be digging a deep hole here.

Because of his pop,rock work a lot of people missed out on Zappas orchestral work....unfortunate that music tends to polarize audiences.

 

[71 dB]

Do you folks listen to a lot of classical music?

About 2/3 of my CD collection is classical music. I'll put it this way: I don't listen to classical music only.

Because I'm aware of a lot of the stuff you're talking about and the similarities to classical music is very much on the surface.

Yes, agreed. If you made rock music VERY similar to classical music, the result would be more like a concerto for electric guitar rather than rock. But on surfice level, some rock music has heavy influences of classical music. The more sophisticated orchestral movie music is comparable to classical music subgenres are opera, theatre music, and ballet.

 

[71 dB]

in that respect I am a basic music consumer, the really ignorant kind. "me like" is as far as I go when it comes to subjectivity. I have outstandingly no curiosity or interest in who, how, why? and most people go mad because of how I shuffle everything and make playlists without any regard for genres, speed, instruments.... TBH I couldn't sort things by genre on my own(well I could read the online tags) beyond a vague rap/rock/classical/and what I keep calling "techno" no matter what it is. I approach music like I do food. as long as I like it, I don't care what's in it^_^. the artist can commit crime against humanity, if I enjoy the song, I'll keep listening to it without a second thought. my brain doesn't seem to care for more than "me like" or "blurghhh".

I'm a bit similar listener. My taste in music was a bit narrow in the beginning (modern electric dance music which really blossomed at the time, from latter part of the 80's to early years of the 90's), but it started to expand. Discovering classical music two decades ago was a real "game changer." I noticed that I can find music I enjoy in almost any genre if I just explore enough. The genre or instrumentation doesn't matter much. I realized that I had been a "music racist" and slowly educated myself away from that mindset.

I think people fool themselves by "protecting" their music taste from expanding by convincing themselves they are listening to the "correct" music and other music is incorrect. That is actually quite silly. I'm not afraid to admit I enjoy "silly" music. I enjoy Katy Perry and Kesha. I might listen to some better David Guetta after Alban Berg's Violin Concerto. The change is refreshing to say the least! So different concepts of what music is! A simpleton can appreciate only simple things. A smart person can appreciate both sophisticated and simple things and laught at himself/herself while doing so. I said to myself I must be losing it when I bought my first Katy Perry album and perhaps my head has gone soft, but I haven't regretted buying any pop album I have in my CD collection and after listening to some pop an average classical symphony sounds insanely sophisticated music in comparison. I don't want to be a simpleton calling fans of classical music elitists nor do I want to be a snob who calls people idiots for listening to radio friendly pop. I want to encourage people to explore music, make their own discoveries and enjoy music as much as possible be it the most sophisticated/difficult art music or the simplest popular music ever.

 

[Whazzzup]

I have Carly ray Jepsen dubstep version of call me maybe, and dub version of Kate perry fireworks, but that’s it.