[fish1050]

  I talked about this many times, but the topic zx2 believe otherwise, I think they're just trying to justify the money that was overpaid!

As an A17 owner I can make the same argument about the ZX100.  Having heard both I will never agree that the ZX100 is worth so much more than the A17.  Stack a good quality amp with the A17 and the sound gets very close and you are still saving a good chunk of money.
 
But that is just me!!

 

[Gosod]

 
As an A17 owner I can make the same argument about the ZX100.  Having heard both I will never agree that the ZX100 is worth so much more than the A17.  Stack a good quality amp with the A17 and the sound gets very close and you are still saving a good chunk of money.
 
But that is just me!!

I was listening to z100 and A17 not agree with your opinion!

 

[Whitigir]

Zx2 has more capacitors, resistors and electrical components as oppose to Zx100. Zx100 may, and actually has been confirmed to sound better than Zx2 in single ended connection, but Zx2 has much better sound coming off TRRS connection. No one is trying to justify anything, just facts. Merged lanes high-way are not as good as separated lanes, period

 

[Tassie Devil]

 
As an A17 owner I can make the same argument about the ZX100.  Having heard both I will never agree that the ZX100 is worth so much more than the A17.  Stack a good quality amp with the A17 and the sound gets very close and you are still saving a good chunk of money.
 
But that is just me!!

Yes, that judgement is a personal one.  No point is any argument about "value" as I completely agree the A17/A25 are excellent value and will be a better buy for most people.
 
The fly in the ointment is the quality of headphones in use.  My experience here leave no doubt as to the AQ improvement if using Sennheiser HD800 headphones.  But that improvement using HD 598s, HD600s or even the much lauded HiFiMan 400s is not so obvious and could indeed lead to the conclusion the improvement of the ZX100 over the A series was not worth the extra expense.
 
Like most situations with AQ, one must be careful about the context of "value" or "worth it" discussions.  If one paid full price for an A25 (with 128 card on board)/HiFiMan 400s we would pay around the $AUD450 mark and that is significantly less than $AUD2400 for a new ZX100/HD800 combo.  One could save around $AUD900 on that with used HD800s and shopping around for ZX100s but even at $AUD1500 odd that is over 3X the cost so the "value" argument is hard to justify and ends up a very personal and subjective decision.
 
Sadly, some of us do sometimes lose sight of this "value" feature and get carried away with purchases.  This has happened to me personally many, many times with "upgrades" mere movements sideways or even backwards

.  Fortunately, as a very retired senior whose kids left home years ago and are doing very nicely for themselves thank you, I can make choices that are ridiculous to many as well as beyond their budget.  That said, I still do try to get the best price on any purchase after considerable research beforehand.  But I am human and still make wrong impulse buys

.  Such is life!!

 

[BartSimpson1976]

when it comes to DAPs and somebody uses the terms "better than" or "worse than" I tend to stop reading. 
IMHO all DAPs nowadays deliver great sonic quality and 95% of what you hear is anyhow determined by the headphones or IEMs you use.
Sound quality is so subjective and it only depends on your personal preference. If you prefer brighter, clearer sound you will
find the ZX100 "better" than the DX80. But of course also the DX80 is a great DAP and somebody with a preference for a more
darker sound will find the DX80 way "better" than the ZX100 or the A17.
 
What you can compare objectively is background hiss, power output, output impedance, battery life and technicalities like UI, connectivity
or compatibility with other devices like amps, DAC, active speakers and so on.

 

[Tassie Devil]

  when it comes to DAPs and somebody uses the terms "better than" or "worse than" I tend to stop reading. 
IMHO all DAPs nowadays deliver great sonic quality and 95% of what you hear is anyhow determined by the headphones or IEMs you use.
Sound quality is so subjective and it only depends on your personal preference. If you prefer brighter, clearer sound you will
find the ZX100 "better" than the DX80. But of course also the DX80 is a great DAP and somebody with a preference for a more
darker sound will find the DX80 way "better" than the ZX100 or the A17.
 
What you can compare objectively is background hiss, power output, output impedance, battery life and technicalities like UI, connectivity
or compatibility with other devices like amps, DAC, active speakers and so on.

You make some very valid points, particularly the inference about GIGO.  AQ is a chain and like all chains is only as strong as the weakest link.  Yes inputs can vary enormously as the original recording vary enormously and, in common with speaker systems the player can be a weakness, the amp less so but the DAC and final transducer (headphone or speaker) would get my vote for the weakest of the links.  With speaker systems the room acoustics add another big variable, one sidestepped by headphones.
 
And I agree there is not the huge difference in the latest crop of DAPs compared to the difference in headphone quality.  BUT there are differences in DAP AQ and I would guess the biggest of them would trace back to the internal DAC + a lesser amount to the amplifier.  But as I said earlier, these differences might not be obvious if headphones are effectively throttling that AQ from shining through.
 
So while fully agreeing we have our personal audio preferences (influenced by both genetics giving us different brains and varied environmental listening history) that does not mean some DAPs do not sound better than others.  So in that context "stopping to read" about differences others might observe is a Luddite approach.   However adopting it is a good counter to the (often ridiculous) "upgrade" urge.
 
Bottom line should be enjoyment of the music, not chasing after the last decibel of clarity etc.  However, most of us do not deny that the music can be more enjoyable with greater fidelity.  But not everyone needs anything approaching "ultimate sound" (whatever that mythical AQ might be) to enjoy music.  To each his own.

 

[fish1050]

  I was listening to z100 and A17 not agree with your opinion!

Was the A17 new or burnded in,  I found after burning in about 60 hours the sound on the A17 improves significantly.  Did you listen straight or with an amp and what headphones do you use.
 
For me my broken in A17 with my Q1 and my B&W headphones sounds close to the ZX100 for about half the price.  So close that I will not pay twice as much for the ZX100 and still have to add an amp. 

 

[fish1050]

  when it comes to DAPs and somebody uses the terms "better than" or "worse than" I tend to stop reading. 
IMHO all DAPs nowadays deliver great sonic quality and 95% of what you hear is anyhow determined by the headphones or IEMs you use.
Sound quality is so subjective and it only depends on your personal preference. If you prefer brighter, clearer sound you will
find the ZX100 "better" than the DX80. But of course also the DX80 is a great DAP and somebody with a preference for a more
darker sound will find the DX80 way "better" than the ZX100 or the A17.
 
What you can compare objectively is background hiss, power output, output impedance, battery life and technicalities like UI, connectivity
or compatibility with other devices like amps, DAC, active speakers and so on.

In my opinion DAP's sound so similar these days as they all use most of the same components.  For me meeting my needs in terms of battery life, storage and price will be the bigger deciding factors.  Nothing that the ZX100 has over my current A17 justifies the much higher price Sony wants to charge.  The ZX100's slightly larger screen but not better quality (not important), extra memory nice but not worth the much higher cost,  all aluminium construction again nice but does not justify the higher cost.
 
I would maybe pay another $100.00 to $150.00 for the benefits of the ZX100 but not $500.00.  All things considered for what you get the A17 has a much better bang for the buck.

 

[Tassie Devil]

 
Was the A17 new or burnded in,  I found after burning in about 60 hours the sound on the A17 improves significantly.  Did you listen straight or with an amp and what headphones do you use.
 
For me my broken in A17 with my Q1 and my B&W headphones sounds close to the ZX100 for about half the price.  So close that I will not pay twice as much for the ZX100 and still have to add an amp. 

It all boils down to what you are looking for and how far your conscience will allow you to go splurging the budget.  
 
Yes, DAPs are now so good the differences are no longer chalk and cheese BUT there are differences and the ZX100 is most definitely better than the A17 or A25 (I have them all).  However the differences may not be so obvious if top quality headphones are not used.  So, if only very good headphones are being used, there is not much value in shelling out more for a better DAP.  Music can be very enjoyable from the SONY A series.  But to tease you, it is better from the ZX100.  Worth it?  Subjective and personal choice but I would say no unless you have the appropriate headphone to obviously hear the difference.

 

[Tassie Devil]

A question for those who have extolled the magic of AQ using a headphone amplifier - Is one really needed with the ZX100?
 
I've put a longer post on this issue at  http://www.head-fi.org/t/816520/are-portable-head-amps-really-necessary#post_12775277  but pose this question seriously.   I have found NO benefit using a head amp (either Fio Mont Blanc A12 or Headstage 5) with the Sennheiser HD800 headphones attached from the ZX100.  I had expected extra grunt would be needed from the Sony ZX100 but have not found that to be the case.  Both the A series & ZX100 have enough power for the HD800s.
 
And, as requested in the other post, please do not berate the choice of head amps mentioned above.  I cannot believe that any headamp can improve AQ with the ZX100 unless those headphones are particularly insensitive.  From what I can understand the best any headamp can do is maintain AQ, amplify it, but cannot improve it.  The old GIGO applies.

 

[kelly200269]

In my opinion DAP's sound so similar these days as they all use most of the same components.  For me meeting my needs in terms of battery life, storage and price will be the bigger deciding factors.  Nothing that the ZX100 has over my current A17 justifies the much higher price Sony wants to charge.  The ZX100's slightly larger screen but not better quality (not important), extra memory nice but not worth the much higher cost,  all aluminium construction again nice but does not justify the higher cost.

I would maybe pay another $100.00 to $150.00 for the benefits of the ZX100 but not $500.00.  All things considered for what you get the A17 has a much better bang for the buck.

You obviously haven't listening to the ZX100 properly!
I own both a ZX100, and an A17. External amps do not make a blind bit difference - in SQ terms, the A17 is outclassed at every turn by the ZX100. The ZX100 is just more 'musical', and makes the A17 sound like an MP3 player in comparison. Just my opinion of course

 

[gerelmx1986]

 

In my opinion DAP's sound so similar these days as they all use most of the same components.  For me meeting my needs in terms of battery life, storage and price will be the bigger deciding factors.  Nothing that the ZX100 has over my current A17 justifies the much higher price Sony wants to charge.  The ZX100's slightly larger screen but not better quality (not important), extra memory nice but not worth the much higher cost,  all aluminium construction again nice but does not justify the higher cost.

I would maybe pay another $100.00 to $150.00 for the benefits of the ZX100 but not $500.00.  All things considered for what you get the A17 has a much better bang for the buck.

You obviously haven't listening to the ZX100 properly!
I own both a ZX100, and an A17. External amps do not make a blind bit difference - in SQ terms, the A17 is outclassed at every turn by the ZX100. The ZX100 is just more 'musical', and makes the A17 sound like an MP3 player in comparison. Just my opinion of course

I agree with you, the ZX100 in contrast to my old A17, the zx100 is more refined, more textured, musical, it sounds beautiful

 

[fish1050]

You obviously haven't listening to the ZX100 properly!
I own both a ZX100, and an A17. External amps do not make a blind bit difference - in SQ terms, the A17 is outclassed at every turn by the ZX100. The ZX100 is just more 'musical', and makes the A17 sound like an MP3 player in comparison. Just my opinion of course

I sold high end stereo equipment for years and most certainly know how to compare them.  The A17 I got as a replacement from Sony manufactured in 2015 sounds significantly better than my original purchased in 2014.  If you have one of the older A17's then I will buy your argument.  As it has been said by many including myself sound quality is subjective and what sounds good to you and what sounds good to be could be quite different.
 
If you break down your budget for a good headphone DAP combo I would go 2/3rds headphone 1/3 DAP as headphones will always make the biggest difference in what you hear.

 

[kelly200269]

I sold high end stereo equipment for years and most certainly know how to compare them.  The A17 I got as a replacement from Sony manufactured in 2015 sounds significantly better than my original purchased in 2014.  If you have one of the older A17's then I will buy your argument.  As it has been said by many including myself sound quality is subjective and what sounds good to you and what sounds good to be could be quite different.

If you break down your budget for a good headphone DAP combo I would go 2/3rds headphone 1/3 DAP as headphones will always make the biggest difference in what you hear.

I bought my A17 a few months ago to partner with my Hugo via Apt-x BT, so I have a late-sample.
And I stand by what I've said. If you spend some serious time with the ZX100, you will appreciate how exquisite the sound quality provided by this unit is. On its own and compared directly, the A17 is unrefined at every turn in comparison.
Out of interest, just how long have you spent time listening to a ZX100?

 

[fish1050]

  I agree with you, the ZX100 in contrast to my old A17, the zx100 is more refined, more textured, musical, it sounds beautiful

 

  A question for those who have extolled the magic of AQ using a headphone amplifier - Is one really needed with the ZX100?
 
I've put a longer post on this issue at  http://www.head-fi.org/t/816520/are-portable-head-amps-really-necessary#post_12775277  but pose this question seriously.   I have found NO benefit using a head amp (either Fio Mont Blanc A12 or Headstage 5) with the Sennheiser HD800 headphones attached from the ZX100.  I had expected extra grunt would be needed from the Sony ZX100 but have not found that to be the case.  Both the A series & ZX100 have enough power for the HD800s.
 
And, as requested in the other post, please do not berate the choice of head amps mentioned above.  I cannot believe that any headamp can improve AQ with the ZX100 unless those headphones are particularly insensitive.  From what I can understand the best any headamp can do is maintain AQ, amplify it, but cannot improve it.  The old GIGO applies.

That depends on whether you are going LO or HO.  If you are going LO then you are bypassing the internal amp so you certainly can improve the sound.  Check out the posts for the Fiio DAP's, users are finding adding the Q1 to together with the X3II makes a definite audible improvement in terms of clarity etc.
 
I will state this again as I have in the past it isn't just about adding power, a portable amp added to a DAP with weak output like the Sony DAP's may not improve detail but it can help improve the soundstage, and yes bass impact, air, etc.. which in my opinion can improve the listening experience.  So sound quality is also about the intangibles as well as detail and sonics.  It is about the entire listening experience.  To me with the Q1 added to my current A17 it narrows some of the audible differences between the A17 and the ZX100.  Straight up yes the ZX100 will beat the A17 as it should but to me with my headphones and adding the amp it narrows the gap to my hears with my HEADPHONES!!
 
I find the Q1 sound signature is very close to that of the A17 so using HO as I am I still get all the detail and sonics from the A17.  For me the Q1's extra power expands the sound stage, adds more impact to the bass, improves the air between the instruments.  Depending on the headphones you use you may not hear the bigger sound stage or the bass impact etc..  My B&W P5S2's can produce a wide and deep sound stage if the music provides it.  Other headphones with a narrower or shallower sound stage may not produce an audible difference.
 
Ultimately all that matters is what sounds the best to you.  Trying to argue that one DAP sounds better than another is pointless since the headphones will make the biggest difference.  As well as the quality of the tracks, type of music you listen to, the listening environment etc...  Some of you use the audio enhancement features and some like me prefer to listen flat.  That will color your perceptions of sound quality as well.
 
When I express an opinion about what I hear when I audition a DAP, headphones etc.. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong I am simply stating to my ears with my equipment and my music and my listening preferences this is what I am hearing.
 
If you want to express you opinions on what sounds good to you please do.  But don't tell me you are right and my opinion is wrong, no one opinion is right over any other as all opinions are subjective.  If we all agreed on everything there would be no need for these forums