[Vamp898]

So does the Walkman contain a dac?

I think we have to agree on the definition of what is a DAC?

Digital to Analog Conversion/Convertor

Analog As in analog sound waves right?

A digital device/equipment cannot output analog sound unless it has some way to convert digital to analog. It has to have a digital to analog conversion chip in its function.

Let’s define what the S-Master Hx chip function as?

My definition of the S-Master HX chip function: it converts digital binary data(pcm/dsd/MQA) into audible amplified analog sound waves that is played back on a speaker.

so does it make it a DAC? Yes in my books(not sure about what other may define what this chip is function as), just that Sony has almost everything integrated in, fully balanced amplification circuitry and almost all DSP/filtering functions done in one single chip.

It doesn't. The S-Master HX doesn't output analog sound waves. If it would, it would not be an full digital amp.

 

[Popeye32]

That is an marketing statement from DSD. The Japanese and the English page clearly state that the Walkman uses an full digital amp and the developer interview explains in detail why this is superior to an analog amp with DAC.

The full digital amp is the whole reason to buy a walkman in the first place

There is no DAC chip in the board, there is no DAC.

Interesting, as obviously it has to convert a digital signal into an analogue one.

 

[Vamp898]

Interesting, as obviously it has to convert a digital signal into an analogue one.

It doesn't. You can push a digital audio signal directly into an speaker and it results into music.

Because the speaker acts as an inductor, it will filter the signal and the result of an filtered PWM signal is an analog signal.

Digital Audio is _not_ Data, thats important here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

Because this signal contains a lot of high frequency noise from the curcuit that is producing it (which would lead into overheating and damaing the speaker), you normally filter the Signal before pushing it to the speaker using LCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter

An DAC is an IC that reads an digital signal on one side and creates a new, analog signal, on the other side that it outpus.

The S-Master HX is amplifying the digital input signal. The output and input signal are the exact same signal, just ampflified. Thats the whole concept behind full digital amplifiers.

Some people call the LCs an DAC because they output an analog Signal, but there is no conversion.

The Signal that reaches the speaker, is the exact same signal that existed before the amplification. So the signal reaches the speaker without any sort of manipulation on the way. So the LCs don't convert/create an analog signal. They just remove information (digital noise from the circuit by resonating at the frequency of this digital noise and letting everythign pass through except the noise) from the Digital Signal and this filtering is causing the leftover signal to be an analog one.

Thats due do the nature of PWM and is unrelated to DACs and Analog Amps. You have the exact same signal from the begining to the speaker.

The Signal that is outputted by analog amps, is a new signal that was created by the DAC in the process of digital to analog conversion. And due to the nature of analog signals, it is manipulated by everything that sits between the DAC and the speaker including the DAC itself.

 

[MrWalkman]

If the output is analog, then I guess it could be called a digital to analog converter in a way, only that it doesn't work in the same way as usual DACs (or not, based on Vamp's explanation, though it may be easier to refer to the S-Master as a DAC - it's at least the equivalent of one, I guess).

Regarding UAPP - there are kind of two audio interfaces, hw:0,1, and hw:0,2 (they may not be exactly like this, but there are two of them).

The first one is for the RED path, the one which the Walkman app uses, and the second one is for the BLUE path, the one which is resampling audio to 48 or 192 kHz, based on the Hi-Res audio option.

UAPP can use the RED path as well, and this is how it can play bit-perfect audio.

The Walkman app could have some additional access to the S-Master, but basically UAPP can do bit-perfect audio.

One more thing is that the RED path can only be used by one app at a time from my experience, so make sure to close the Walkman app before using UAPP. By checking this via ADB, UAPP defaults to the BLUE path if the RED one is in use.

 

[Vamp898]

Its an closed source application, nobody knows what it does and how beisde the developers. But the last time i tested it on the ZX500, it was influenced by the "Hi-Res Audio Streaming" settings. In my testings, playing an 24bit/96KHz Test file, everything above 22kHz was cut. So i still assume, it deosn't access the S-Master HX directly.

But this was roughly a year ago. Maybe the UAPP developers reverse implemented it in the mean time, but without any documentation whatsoever, thats rather unlikely. But not impossible.

 

[MrWalkman]

Its an closed source application, nobody knows what it does and how beisde the developers. But the last time i tested it on the ZX500, it was influenced by the "Hi-Res Audio Streaming" settings. In my testings, playing an 24bit/96KHz Test file, everything above 22kHz was cut. So i still assume, it deosn't access the S-Master HX directly.

But this was roughly a year ago. Maybe the UAPP developers reverse implemented it in the mean time, but without any documentation whatsoever, thats rather unlikely. But not impossible.

I confirmed that it uses the RED path via ADB, this was some 1 or 2 years ago on the A100/ZX500.

 

[Vamp898]

I confirmed that it uses the RED path via ADB, this was some 1 or 2 years ago on the A100/ZX500.

That is no gaurantee, UAPP themself say so. You have to disable Hi-Res Audio Streaming, then run UAPP, play an Hi-Res Audio File and check if the information above 22kHz is still there.

 

[MrWalkman]

That is no gaurantee, UAPP themself say so. You have to disable Hi-Res Audio Streaming, then run UAPP, play an Hi-Res Audio File and check if the information above 22kHz is still there.

Unfortunately my A100 was bricked in my attempts to get root access, so this is where my story ends

 

[rlw6534]

I confirmed that it uses the RED path via ADB, this was some 1 or 2 years ago on the A100/ZX500.

I just checked it recently and can confirm logcat shows UAPP clearly using the RED audio path with no resampling, so a direct "hardware" path is used. Because the Sony has a unique combination of hardware and software (ie. no off-the-shelf DAC), I'm not sure what that means from the S-Master (i.e. Class D amp) perspective.

 

[FreeTime]

Very enlightening discussions, cheers. Honestly, I thought all music need go analogue before output too. Technological advancement is really amazing. Seems we are trying to follow the white rabbit and taking the red pill, Oracle, we are coming


I remember someone ask if MDR Z1R sounds good with ZM2, I hesitated in answering as sometimes it sounds good, sometimes just so so before I close unnecessary apps. Now I would say if IER Z1R sounds good to u, MDR is a good compliment too, though u might need to find a good cable. It's strange, with unwanted background apps running, i need go volume of 58 high gain with MDR, with only walkman app running, Im just doing volume 50 hg, the loudness is about same and music sounds better.

My ZM2 is about 730 hrs clock in on balance. My previous post mentioned no more veil and a little congestion left in music at 500 hrs. Now the congestions is gone too, interesting part, the airy and holographic starts setting in, amazing with powerful female vocalist. Actually, im not very certain about burn in hrs anymore, as I just discovered the side effects of background apps, even though playing with walkman app. Anyway, it's amazing now, got what i wanted, an upgrade from WM1A.

Just a quick recap, tap on the right bottom square box on screen, clear all unused apps by swiping up.

 

[AudioTransit9213]

I know this message, it means nothing. UAPP doesn't have direct access to the S-Master HX


I did measurements and recordintgs directly from the output of the ZX507. Walkman App, UAPP, VLC, Amazon Music and YouTube Music all sound 100% identical.

So to make this, again, clear once and for all (This Voodoo keeps popping up way too often)

• The Walkman App does not alter the sound. Measurements and Analyzis in Audacity has proofen that.
• 3rd Party Apps cannot access the S-Master HX directly, even though they say so
• The Walkman DAPs do not have any DAC, so there is no Hi-Res Audio DAC. They are full digital amps.

So all music players sound the same, and they wall sound like the Walkman app.

If you don't trust me, go to 100% volume and just recjord the output straight out of the Walkman and analyze it in audacity. Its identical.

I'm no tech expert, but I'm pretty positive there's a dac inside every dap. If there wasn't, there would be no analog output whatsoever. At some point the digital signal has to convert to analog before any headphone can receive it through the outputs. Even those tiny Apple headphone dongle things have a dac inside.

 

[AudioTransit9213]

Ignore my previous post. For some reason the last 2 pages of replies weren't showing when I replied.
Appreciate all the information that's come through since.

 

[564070]

Took a calculated risk last night and ordered my NW-WM1AM2 on Amazon-de. Thus the EU version.
Various reviews indicated to me that the device is still excellent with low impedance IEM like my Sennheiser IE300.
Expected delivery 2-3 weeks. The risk of grey import via eBay Japan was too risky for me and also more expensive when you add VAT, customs and duties.
And on Amazon you can return within 30 days, no questions asked.
Let’s see.

My NW-WM1AM2 arrived an hour ago. So exited
Still in the process of setting up my device.
Is there really no way to get rid of the Google Search Bar (without ADB) ?

 

[MrWalkman]

My NW-WM1AM2 arrived an hour ago. So exited
Still in the process of setting up my device.
Is there really no way to get rid of the Google Search Bar (without ADB) ?

You could use another launcher.

 

[ttt123]

It doesn't. You can push a digital audio signal directly into an speaker and it results into music.

Because the speaker acts as an inductor, it will filter the signal and the result of an filtered PWM signal is an analog signal.

Digital Audio is _not_ Data, thats important here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

Because this signal contains a lot of high frequency noise from the curcuit that is producing it (which would lead into overheating and damaing the speaker), you normally filter the Signal before pushing it to the speaker using LCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter

An DAC is an IC that reads an digital signal on one side and creates a new, analog signal, on the other side that it outpus.

The S-Master HX is amplifying the digital input signal. The output and input signal are the exact same signal, just ampflified. Thats the whole concept behind full digital amplifiers.

Some people call the LCs an DAC because they output an analog Signal, but there is no conversion.

The Signal that reaches the speaker, is the exact same signal that existed before the amplification. So the signal reaches the speaker without any sort of manipulation on the way. So the LCs don't convert/create an analog signal. They just remove information (digital noise from the circuit by resonating at the frequency of this digital noise and letting everythign pass through except the noise) from the Digital Signal and this filtering is causing the leftover signal to be an analog one.

Thats due do the nature of PWM and is unrelated to DACs and Analog Amps. You have the exact same signal from the begining to the speaker.

The Signal that is outputted by analog amps, is a new signal that was created by the DAC in the process of digital to analog conversion. And due to the nature of analog signals, it is manipulated by everything that sits between the DAC and the speaker including the DAC itself.

Yes, all true. Some further points about what you would call a DAC.
There are:
- Delta-Sigma one chip DACS (AKM, ESS, Wolfson, Burr-Brown, etc)
- Digital input converted to Analog -> Analog Amp
- R2R resistor ladder DACS
- Digital input converted to Analog -> Analog Amp
- Pulse Array DACS (Sony, Chord, )
- Digital input shaped and output as a digital Pulse Stream.
- In the Sony the Digital Pulse Stream->Digital Audio Pulse Driver (class D amp) -> filtered, etc. and used to drive the headphone
The beauty of the Sony S-Master HX is that the signal is kept in the digital domain from input to output, and it skips the conversion to Analog, and the need for a separate Analog Amp.
Thus you could say that the signal path is simpler, "purer", and more efficient, and the Audio Pulse Driver can be said to be "truer/closer" to the digital signal. (Of course doing this properly is not an easy thing.)

I would say that all the above are DACS, by the definition that a Digital input signal is converted to an Analog signal to drive the headphones. Yes, it is done quite differently in the middle, but the end result is the same. The digital signal becomes an audio output signal.
Thus, the Sony S-Master HX is an integrated, all in one DAC/AMP

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https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sony-nw-wm1z-wm1a.815841/post-14499739
Sep 23, 2018 at 5:52 AMPost #23,780 of 45,723
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Kira69​

Head-Fier​

JoinedDec 28, 2014Posts89Likes70

Does anyone know how the Sony own S-Master HX technology handles conversion compared to the older R2R chips? I ask as an owner of R2R2000 who owns all the other major daps and the Hugo 2 has said that ever since he got hold of his r2r2000 he can't listen to the delta-sigma chips based DAC the same way he used to before. His words, there seems to no distortion with the R2R2000 and the sound is pure, clean at all volumes.

I can't find any material regarding the handling of digital data with the Sony own S-Master chips. Thanks in advance.

Depending on the input. Quick resume.

PCM:

• Input sampling rate (fs) = 32 kHz to 384 kHz
• If enabled: DSP (DSEE HX, etc.)
• If enabled: DSD RE. transition to on-time DSD11.2MHz conversion DSD process (Only on TA-ZH1ES and DMP-Z1)
• Clean Data Cycle (384KHz → DC Phase Linearizer and Noise Shaper)
• Synchronous Time Accuracy Controller (S-TACT) (Output = 2048 fs = PWM (C-PLM) 90MHz or 98MHz)
• Pulse Height Volume Control (LDO regulator)
• Audio Pulse Driver hybrid amplified output

DSD (only on balanced):

• Input sampling rate (fs) = 2.8 MHz, 5.6 MHz, 11.2 MHz
• Synchronous Time Accuracy Controller (S-TACT) (output = 2048 fs = PDM 90 MHz)
• Pulse Height Volume Control (LDO regulator)
• Audio Pulse Driver hybrid amplified output

More about S-Master HX:

https://www.sony.jp/audio/products/TA-ZH1ES/feature_3.html
https://www.sony.jp/walkman/products/NW-WM1Z/feature_1.html#L2_80
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Master
https://docs.sony.com/release/ES_STR_05_Final.pdf (a bit dated but still relevant)