Sony Minidisc vs. IPod or other player

[estreeter]

I own exactly one SACD, and I am decidedly unwilling to go out and buy another universal player simply to be able to hear that 'last 10%' (more like 2% to my ears), even at home. In a portable environment, it borders on obsession to insist on that level of quality. I'm definitely not going to get too hung up over whether MiniDisc or whatever is superior to the WAV, FLAC and 320K VBR files on my Sony DAP. I carry a tiny device with hour upon hour of enjoyment at my fingertips - it doesnt get any better than that.

Life is just too short, people - I say we let 5 year old threads rest in peace.

 

[Head_case]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aevum /img/forum/go_quote.gif mp3 is here to stay, its good enough for consumer level, and its quite easy to use, im not worried about mp3 going away, im more worried about people getting use to it and making it harder and harder for people to get music in lossless or high quality formats, 95% of people have chinese built crap supermarket brand mp3 players with 5 buck Pony headphones from the local supermarket, its fine to be an idealist, but i suspect that as we move to digital distribution of music, people who run those distribution channels will see that 90-95% of their sales are in lossy formats like AAC, WMA and MP3, and just wont bother providing high quality/lossless alternatives,

That's a valid point: mp3 was never about quality music; more about digital convenience.

One reason why minidisc refuses to die like so many wish, is because it strikes a fantastic balance between that portable convenience, and quality, as well as offering a live digital recording capability with extreme convenience at the touch of a button. All at a terrific budget. Now, it's a niche and cult retro form of 'digital convenience'. Not as convenient as a iPod, but not all of us need to sold into such marketing fads

By the time most people's MP3 hard drive failures have become so complete, mini-disc recorders are still going and going: there is a question of 'archivability' too. Vinyl is best for that. CDs seem to last 25+ years and are going strong. The overinflated confidence in MP3 and digital format however is sheer arrogance: the hard drive stability/crashing and the need to back it up after its 5 year life cycle isn't a non-entity. Mini-discs don't fail or crash anything like the current generation of iShuffles and iPods and Windows 7 computers

I guess lossless digital music formats will hang around too - given that processors are heading for bigger and better; and hard drive spaces are going for bigger and better too.

 

[shigzeo]

If there ever was a solid engineering miracle, it is that Sony managed to pass around ATRAC as superior to CD and DAT for so many years. Eventually, though, the format found itself compared on equal hardware against codecs which sony didn't bluff and it has trailed.

I love the format, but ATRAC is awash with lies and has been since 1992. MP3, like it or hate it, won't disappear. It has been around as long as ATRAC, and it is obvious which is still pushing forward.

 

[originalsnuffy]

One of the few electronic toys that I really do not miss is the minidisc player.

Compression was similar in sound to MP3 at higher bitrates. But you had to carry about bunch of discs....compared with stuffing a bunch of music into flash memory....or hard drive....or web based access.

And my original minidiscs skipped when I ran (later gshock came out and fixed that).

Other than that the MD format was great.

 

[Zanth]

shigzeo's argument holds up on for the ATRAC conversion and not for straight PCM. For straight PCM the wonderful sound is more characteristic of the DAC's used in a given unit and the internal amp chips vs. the "photoshopped" sound of the ATRAC files. I still preferred the lossless sound from the HiMD units I heard over iPods (of that generation anyway). I haven't compared in years.

No doubt I love the mass storage I have now. I will always want more storage. The Hifiman HM-801 has a puny 2 GB onboard Flash but is expandable using SD cards. Those are slim enough to enable a user to have quite the collection on hand. The benefits of this particular unit include:

FLAC up to 24/96
Theoretically unlimited storage
Drag and drop system
Digital input to use the DAC
Digital output (to use another DAC)
Line-out (to use another amp)

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aevum /img/forum/go_quote.gif mp3 is here to stay, its good enough for consumer level, and its quite easy to use, im not worried about mp3 going away, im more worried about people getting use to it and making it harder and harder for people to get music in lossless or high quality formats, 95% of people have chinese built crap supermarket brand mp3 players with 5 buck Pony headphones from the local supermarket, its fine to be an idealist, but i suspect that as we move to digital distribution of music, people who run those distribution channels will see that 90-95% of their sales are in lossy formats like AAC, WMA and MP3, and just wont bother providing high quality/lossless alternatives,

Are you sure that 95% of the people have these crappy units? From the enormous record sales of iPods through the last decade, it seems that most folks would actually own an iPod and not just some crappy unit.

 

[pata2001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head_case /img/forum/go_quote.gif One reason why minidisc refuses to die like so many wish,...

Errr, it's already dead. Even in Japan, the latest version of Sonicstage doesn't even support MD anymore. No new players after the RH1. If the only backer, Sony, is not even supporting the format anymore, then it's dead. It's easier for me to find a floppy disk and a blank MD disk in stores. Just because there's a niche market, doesn't mean the format is alive. Heck, there are still 8-track/laserdisc/zip-drive devices out there, that doesn't mean those formats are still "alive." Obviously, dead doesn't mean that people cannot use it anymore. MD is still a great tool for live audio recording (I'm still using it). However, the format is dead, period. There's no future for it, and Sony doesn't care.

 

[Head_case]

Quote:

If there ever was a solid engineering miracle, it is that Sony managed to pass around ATRAC as superior to CD and DAT for so many years. Eventually, though, the format found itself compared on equal hardware against codecs which sony didn't bluff and it has trailed.

Hmmm. This isn't logic. You're not describing an engineering miracle. You're describing a marketing sales pitch. It was never marketed as better than CD either. It was marketed as a viable 'near-CD quality' to compete with Phillips digital cassette and analogue tape cassettes!

Coming to think of it, I only heard a digital cassette once and really quite enjoyed it too! Now here's another obscure format to get into

Quote:

Errr, it's already dead. Even in Japan, the latest version of Sonicstage doesn't even support MD anymore.

Haha, Who needs Sonicstage?! I've never heard of it nor use it. A mini-disc user's transcription work flow is simple; plug in the minidisc to the vinyl LP pre-out: plug in the minidisc to the CD player via the optical cable; plug the minidisc into the laptop via the 3.5mm jack; or just use it with the plug in mic and record away. Simple! Go! Just like that! No computer programs required

Many of us mini-disc users continue to use it - we're indifferent to technological trends. We don't need to keep up, by seeing a new mini-disc released: mine is still going strong after 8+ years. We don't need nor want expensive commercial releases on minidisc either: the average mini-disc player, is more used to buying releases on CD or vinyl, and will rip onto mini-disc for convenience, rather than waste money buying a small pre-recorded minidisc. We don't need magazines to discuss minidisc - we can just continue using our mid-fi technological mini-discs to enjoy music on the trot. There isn't even a commercial niche market per se! Most of the blank minidiscs sold in shops are probably remaindered stock! We are more likely to recycle our old minidiscs and continue recording, re-recording, and triple-quadruple recording on them, well after most of your hard drives are dead and gone, dead beyond gone. Mostly, we quite enjoy it when we whip out our mini-discs on the underground tube, and all the youngsters start marvelling at our prehistoric technology! Most of all, we don't even care about Sony. We'd rather own Sharp high end mini-disc players like the MT888H, and buy a spare one, or spare two, just in case it doesn't last a lifetime, and don't even buy Sony minidiscs. All of my blanks are Sharp, TDK or Maxell. Sony can go and PSP itself.

However! We're more than likely to feel a bit miffed that people think we our lovely format is dead lol. We don't get too upset about it because we're not sensitive types - mostly because we've heard it all before, but the beauty of the sound of the SP uncompressed recordings from minidisc, are superior to the current marketing drivel, that Apple Lossless is such a cool lossless format. Ultimately we enjoy the quality of uncompressed hi-end minidisc. Maybe people don't get it nor get us. We love to carry a portable selection of 6-8 minidiscs to flick through and carefully choose an album which has a start and finish. We like the click of the minidisc opening and shoving the minidisc in, and then hearing the little engine fire up. We don't like rotary i-Touch dials which spin 4000 tracks and make everything blend into one seamless jam! We revive 5 year old threads and people think we're dumb (well errr....we are a bit..

)

Mini-disc users aren't pretending mini-disc is audiophile vinyl; we don't need to: we're not a one format sales pitch team. Equally, we're not happy with MP3s and iPods and contemporary consumerism.

We're happy with mini-disc

PS - is there only one of me out there loving mini-disc?!

 

[Pageygeeza]

Quote:

Hmmm. This isn't logic. You're not describing an engineering miracle. You're describing a marketing sales pitch. It was never marketed as better than CD either. It was marketed as a viable 'near-CD quality' to compete with Phillips digital cassette and analogue tape cassettes!

Dang, you beat me to it! It's funny when people assume that MD was supposed to be the CD killer.

I can still remember the battle between Phillips and Sony about who's was better. On Tomorrows World they even set up a boxing ring with both devices and have to admit what sold the MD to me: The fact they opened it up while it was playing and it still played!

I still have my MX-R30 kicking around, she still works like a dream!

 

[shigzeo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pageygeeza /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dang, you beat me to it! It's funny when people assume that MD was supposed to be the CD killer. I can still remember the battle between Phillips and Sony about who's was better. On Tomorrows World they even set up a boxing ring with both devices and have to admit what sold the MD to me: The fact they opened it up while it was playing and it still played! I still have my MX-R30 kicking around, she still works like a dream!

Gentlemen, my MD player came with marketing literature which said 'better than DAT 1996' and in 1995 'Better than CD'. I was a huge MD fan till 2005 and collected so much stuff. Sony didn't outright say it at first, but to sell MD to the placebolites, they had to market it as better. And they did.

And Zanth is right, PCM is of course 100% 16 bit lossless. The problem for me (a taper) is that by the time it came out, the good portable recorders with 30 second buffers (Sharps were always the best for concert recording) had all gone the way of the dodo. That, and when you are at concert, you still had to carry either two machines, or lose a section of the recording as your PCM passed about 1:30.

 

[pata2001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head_case /img/forum/go_quote.gif However! We're more than likely to feel a bit miffed that people think we our lovely format is dead lol. We don't get too upset about it ... PS - is there only one of me out there loving mini-disc?!

So, you claimed that you don't get too upset, yet you went on and on talking about nothing and bashing other stuff that is not even part of the conversation.

Like I already said, just because you're still using MD doesn't mean the format is alive. There are people that still use 8-track, floppy disk, zip disk, laser disc, etc, yet all of those formats are considered dead. MD is dead. Sony is no longer supporting it, nor putting any improvements. None of the other manufactures were even bothered with HiMD.

Sounds like you're simply a fanboy.

PS: Contrary to you trying to bash MP3, the codec is continually being improved, notably Lame MP3, to the point that it's transparent and still comparable with the other modern codecs like AAC in today's blind tests. Not the case with Atrac where development has pretty much stopped years ago.

 

[Head_case]

Quote:

So, you claimed that you don't get too upset, yet you went on and on talking about nothing and bashing other stuff that is not even part of the conversation. Like I already said, just because you're still using MD doesn't mean the format is alive. There are people that still use 8-track, floppy disk, zip disk, laser disc, etc, yet all of those formats are considered dead. MD is dead. Sony is no longer supporting it, nor putting any improvements. None of the other manufactures were even bothered with HiMD. Sounds like you're simply a fanboy.

Feel the love!

I've no idea what you're on about. Bashing other formats? Lol. Some people like to go with the commercial flow of progress hmm?!

Whether a format is dead or not, is not for you to decide. If others use it, even 2 others, it's not dead. Enjoy the freedom away from commercial conformity! You don't need no thought control! Ressurect your music on a 'dead' format

 

[Joe Average]

This has to be the record for thread necromancy I swear... been around years at hundreds if not thousands of forums and never found one resurrected after 5 freakin' years.

Anywho...

I purchased the original portable Sony MiniDisc unit when it first hit the market, cost me about $800 total, and I loved the hell out of it while I owned it. Bought several retail MiniDiscs, Pearl Jam's "Ten," Rush "Counterparts," and a few others. Had a lot of fun with it and was damned satisfied and I do miss it sometimes just for the nostalgia.

Sony had the perfect portable with the MiniDisc, what, 16 years ago this year... and they pooched it from day 1. It's dead for one reason: Sony is full of moronic imbeciles that just can't seem to figure out when they have a truly kickass product and how to handle having such a product. It's sad really.

The MiniDisc could have been the replacement for the Floppy Disc, seriously. It's perfect for that sort of thing (and I'm referring to the original MiniDiscs that had a formatted capacity - for data storage - of about 140MB). There was a MiniDisc data drive unit that was available for a short period of time but it cost nearly twice as much as the player/recorder I owned so it was way way outside anyone's price range and all it did was store/retrieve data like... well... like a floppy.

Sony had it, they really did, but they kept right on tripping over themselves with stupid decisions, bad marketing, idiotic engineers, and public relations buffoons, and so Iomega came out with the Zip Disk - a 100% inferior product by any and all meanings of the word "inferior" - and it took off like the proverbial bat outta hell.

I was so pissed at Sony in those days, I wrote three letters to their Chairman and of course never got a response of any kind (and those were handwritten letters, airmailed to Sony's world HQ at some expense years past). Idiots. It failed and it's their own fault.

They were the portables that mattered... too bad Sony couldn't figure it out. Over the years I've owned 3 home decks, and about 11 portables with hundreds of MDs for my own stuff. Last one I owned was an MZ-N1 years ago which I inadvertently left on the back seat of a city bus here in Las Vegas (boy I'm still pissed about that, but that's another story).

Ah... the good old days... memories...

 

[estreeter]

I think Sony Corp is simply too big - there is undeniable engineering talent in various divisions, but their marketing effort is so fractured and, sadly, often clueless. Sony are still putting together some very good AV receivers - what would it take for them to focus some of their talent back on the two-channel kit ?

 

[BIGHMW]

As I and many other fellow MiniDisc Community Forum (now a part of SonyInsider.com) members, myself included always say, just because it may be "dead technology" does not make it inferior.

I still use it to convert some of my vinyl to MD before then either playing it on either of my MD car decks, or uploading it to SS CP 4.2 (using my RH1) before spilling it out onto my NW-HD5. Do you actually think for one minute that I would go back to cassette tape, in which MiniDisc successfully replaced?

MiniDisc was never intended to be the successor to CD, that is where Sony made a critical mistake, marketing it as that. The replacement to cassette tape, yes. CD, no.

NO.

Mixtapes will live forever, although from now on, at least here at BIGHMW.com Headquarters, they will be on MD, not cassette tape.

I do admit that even the 1GB Hi-MD format is no match for a 20GB PMP, as I myself use an NW-HD5 for my personal use, but also you should keep in mind, that the MD and Hi-MD formats have endless expansion, if you are willing to a bunch of them in you backpack, and since Hi-MD players/recorders are backwards-compatible with standard MD formats (SP Stereo/SP Mono/LP2/LP4) in both playback (all of them) and recording (except the MZ-RH10/710/910/M10/M100, all second generation players), it means you get two units in one, MD and Hi-MD.

Now I've gotta go now and snag up the last of the blank MD's so I will be well stocked come time Sony pulls the plug on our beloved format (yeah, right!)