[Driftwood]

an interesting thread. I would definately be interested in hearing the R-10, though I don't think I would be interested in owning them, oddly enough. Then again, I say this without having heard them

Driftwood

 

[markl]

Quote:

It's unfortunate but I'm going to have to point out that the R10s aren't something anybody can learn to enjoy overnight

I sure did. Instant chemical reaction in my lizard brain. Instant joy!

markl

 

[Vertigo-1]

kwkarth, I don't mind. Getting into long debates like these sometimes is really the only way to further one's own knowledge, particularly figuring out how to describe sounds.

Now waiting for shivohum to one up me.

 

[markl]

Well, I think several times in my review I commented on the "natural" sound of the R10s. I also commented that the R10s lacked any of the other usual headphone suspect's signature "gimmicks". You may not be aware of the "gimmick" or exaggeration unless you had the R10 to compare it against.

Quote:

First of all, whether the bass is visceral or not is an aspect of the music. To say that the R10 lacks visceral bass and then claim that the bass lacks nothing in musical terms is not correct; organs and drums and cellos are meant to be felt. The artists who use them use them with full knowledge of their visceral qualities. Now you can argue that to some extent headphones can't do visceral bass, but some headphones certainly do it better than others. Not having this capability at all is a clear imperfection and deviation from realism.

Tell that to all the ER4S owners on this site and duck for cover! If we can forgive the ER4S for not pummeling and abusing the ear in the bass region, let's let the R10 slide there too.

Quote:

Will the R10s convey the same sense of slam, grunge, harshness, and grit? Can the R10s scream?

???? Why would you WANT that? Stick with Grados if you want to hurt your ears.

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The HD-600's are the complete opposite of the R-10's. The HD-600's go to great lengths to prevent coloration of the sound. The grill is designed to prevent resonation. The pads are all cushiony to absorb reverberations.The R-10's, on the other hand, go to great lengths to sound like speakers. That's why they use that expensive wood. The wood causes distortion in the sound, just like you get it real life. The reflections reinforce what you hear from the source. It gives your brain more data to interpet the sounds into meaningful information. I would imagine that the detail is much greater with the HD-600's, or, for that matter, many other high-end headphones, because you're hearing just the sound - it's not being mixed in with reflections or being purposely distorted.

In the other thread someone mentioned they don't recalll the R10 being slammed by people who hadn't heard it. Here's another example. These comments have no basis in actual experience with the R10.

Cousin Eddie- see my review in the permanent section if you are looking for a review without major reservations.

markl

 

[kelly]

Mark, you really find the 333 to be smooth? I don't feel that the 555 is smooth compared to other CD players in its price range. However, I do think the Melos is smooth - but still not as smooth as expensive all tube amps and likely not be as smooth as something like the Cary SEI, which I still need to hear. If you really want a smooth sound, I think you could achieve it even moreso with a different amp and source but I worry that you'd end up losing detail.

Either way, we make the point well that you have to make a good fit for your components to maximize the strengths and minimize the flaws.

 

[shivohum]

Quote:

Tell that to all the ER4S owners on this site and duck for cover! If we can forgive the ER4S for not pummeling and abusing the ear in the bass region, let's let the R10 slide there too.

I am an ER4S owner! And I agree that this is a defect of the ER4S. But there's a difference between enjoying defective headphones, and not admitting the defect. The fact is that the R10 and the ER4S both share this flaw. To some people it might be a more important flaw than others. But it is clear that a lack of visceral bass where the music so requires is unrealistic.

Quote:

Why would you WANT that?

Because some concerts sound that way? If the concert itself screams at you and hurts your ears, do the R10s convey that?

 

[markl]

Well, I have a very heavily mod-ed 333ES that has significant upgrades to both the power supply and the analog section, so that contributes heavily to the lack of grit.

I do still dream of the Cary, though. I'd love to hear it, too.

markl

 

[markl]

If it's in the recording, the R10 will show it to you. However, it's not going to add any extra "topspin" of its own to make things harsher or more piercing, if that's what you're asking.

markl

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Well, I have a very heavily mod-ed 333ES that has significant upgrades to both the power supply and the analog section, so that contributes heavily to the lack of grit. I do still dream of the Cary, though. I'd love to hear it, too. markl

Ooh? You have the Dan Wright mods?

 

[markl]

I have the Level 1 mods to the analog section and power supply, damping mods, plus Bybee filters in the power supply.

His mods make an easily noticeable difference. The differences have been confirmed in blind A/B tests of mod-ed and stock units carried out by an audiophile society. I re-posted their report somewhere here, plus I've reviewed his mods here as well.

You void your warranty, but damn it sounds sweet!

markl

 

[kelly]

I think what shiv is implying is that if something does sound harsh when recorded and does not sound harsh when played back, the system is inaccurate.

Something can be inaccurate and good. The W2002 smoothes out a lot of things I found harsh in certain recordings. I'm not surprised to hear the R10 described as doing the same thing.

For my personal preference and rig design goals (if you will) I hope to localize the smoothing effect in the source. Realy high end DACs Ive heard do that... they present the details that I find grating and annoying in other systems but somehow present them in a less offensive way. If I'm planning to attack the problem at the source level then attacking it also elsewhere in the system could lead to losing detail, which for my tastes I obviously don't want. This was one of the considerations when I moved to sell the W2002. Sometimes it's not just about today but a matter of where you're going. If you're sticking to a mostly solid state rig design with a digital source, it sounds like the R10 might be a better fit.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into things.

 

[shivohum]

Quote:

If it's in the recording, the R10 will show it to you.

Well I came across this in your original R10 review:

Quote:

The result of this easy, steady, and distortion-free presentation is the enhanced ability to listen to these headphones long-term, and that’s what we like to do isn’t it? It should be noted that this quality might actually turn off some listeners of hard rock or electronica. The R10s are in control of the sound, presenting it clearly and cleanly, thus removing some of the “visceral” experience of this kind of music. I think this may be what Vertigo-1 was reacting to when he listed all the kinds of music the R10 are “not suited for”. For me, though, the ease and command of the R10s make them the best hard-rockin’ phones of all. They really let you ease into the sound, making it much easier to listen to intense music for longer periods of time. They make sense out of the chaos, without losing the energy of the performance or truncating the sound on top or bottom.

Are hard rock concerts meant to be listened to "for long periods of time"? Are they supposed to "ease you into the sound"? Are they supposed to be clear and orderly, or chaotic and out of control? Do headbangers rave about the way their favorite concerts relax them? Or is exhaustion the nature of some music?

 

[shivohum]

Quote:

If you want to extend realism as far as feeling the music, then no the R10s cannot help you there. But then again I'm not sure if you're in the right forum either...this is a headphone forum, and the speaker forum is that-a-way.

But some headphones do it much better than others. For instance, the Senn 600s do it quite well for headphones, which is not bad at all.

Quote:

It's unfortunate but I'm going to have to point out that the R10s aren't something anybody can learn to enjoy overnight, much less within the space of a few minutes or even a few hours. If you come off a short audition liking the R10s, you're probably not even liking them for the right reasons.

Wow... youch... thanks for this info. Just how long does it take for people to appreciate real music?

Quote:

Now waiting for shivohum to one up me.

Nope -- I just want to present a balanced picture. Where's the one-upsmanship? That would require me to say that MY headphone was better in some way

--
Markl wrote:
Quote:

BTW, I would never use a live rock show as a standard for good sound. I've been to hundreds and hundreds of shows, and the sound is almost always awful. I sure wouldn't want to replicate that in my home environment, but that's me.

OK, so:

1) Most live rock concerts sound awful so
2) You wouldn't want to replicate the sound of live rock concerts in your home and
3) You adore the R10 so I'm guessing that:
4) The R10 doesn't replicate the sound of live rock concerts in your home. Instead it
5) presents the music "clearly and cleanly," and removes "some of the 'visceral' experience" of the music. It also lets "you ease into the sound, making it much easier to listen to intense music for longer periods of time."

Yet you've said that

4) "If it's in the recording, the R10 will show it to you."

But if that was the case

5) The R10 would make live rock concerts sound like live rock concerts, which, we've already established it doesn't do (since if it did you wouldn't like it).

Thus its effects on the music (#5) must be:

6) EDIT: inaccurate, but euphonic.

Did I make a mistake?

Oh, there's also the possibility that the R10 IS true to the recording, but deep down you really don't like it

.

 

[kelly]

Shiv is definitely my favorite *******.

 

[Driftwood]

hehe, damn right... I don't really see how all this is accomplishing anything either... it is all just argumentative, plain and simple.

but I find it soooo amusing.

Driftwood