[Vertigo-1]

And regarding the R10s simply being like speakers...please do not lump any stinkin' headphones together with speakers. I would not ever consider my R10s on the same level as my Triangle Tituses, there are some things speakers can achieve that no headphone can ever achieve. The R10s are not for speaker lovers. They'd probably be the last thing a hardcore speaker lover would want because the presentation is incredibly upfront, very close, and very intimate. Very headphone-like. The difference between the R10s and a pair of speakers is only about a couple dozen feet. The R10s are for people who want to simply hear the real thing (and that is a simple broad statement to be taken with salt), or I should say, real sound. No more, no less.

One thing's for sure, you're gonna be paying a hell of a lot more than $4000 for some speakers to hit the level of sheer realism you can get with the R10s. The last time I heard anywhere near the amount of realism I hear with the R10s, the system costed over $20k.

It's also one thing to appreciate the fine lines of B.S. that most manuals tend to state about the accompanying product. It's another to realize that what the manual is describing is actually true. I think the best satisfaction from a consumer using a product stems from a product that works (or in this case, sounds) as described, noh?

 

[Audio-Me]

Hey Vert, are the R10s even remotely as good as them cool A44Ls?

 

[Vertigo-1]

I'd say the R10s are remotely better. Remotely up to the North Pole. Or maybe Alpha Centauri.

 

[shivohum]

Quote:

It is clearly not neutral in the sense of what you'd hear from the Grado HP-1s, and in that sense even neutrality can be considered a form of tonal coloration.

What do you mean by the idea that neutrality can be considered a form of coloration?

 

[Vertigo-1]

I mean that in the sense that if blindfolded, and you handed me the Grado HP-1s, I'd name them because of their flat, lifeless tone of presentation. That is their form of coloration by which I could and would identify them by, that they are tonally flat. The point being is that you cannot identify the R10s in this manner, because they do not contain that flat and lifeless sound inherent to the Grado HP-1000 series, and therefore it's not feasible to call the R10s necessarily neutral tonally. The R10s just simply lack all forms of what we would call a tonal sonic signature. They sound so rich and full of life that you can't help but think they're colored, and yet at the same time they sound flat as a ruler, making you think they're neutral. In reality it's neither. I believe neutrality is NOT the reason why the R10s sound so real to life, rather it's something else that only the Sony engineers behind the R10s could explain. At best I can only say it's like a fusion between colored sound and neutrality in order to get that sense of realism, if that makes any sense.

I am really not kidding when I say we need a new dictionary for this.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vertigo-1 It is clearly not neutral in the sense of what you'd hear from the Grado HP-1s, and in that sense even neutrality can be considered a form of tonal coloration.

LOL, you lost me here, Vert. I think you're just trying to be philosophical

 

[shivohum]

And do you think the R10s are equally adept at all genres of music? Are they able to slam with the harshest rock music as well as any Grado?

Quote:

I will probably get audited out of nowhere by the IRS or get shot in the back of the head by snipers tomorrow morning as a result of this comparison, but I will go ahead and risk this.

I don't see why.

Those who love the HD600 don't fear for their headphone, since many others who have heard the R10s don't think that they're so extraordinarily better than everything else (we now have tuberoller and 88sound to add to mrbeanyohan, darth, and M Rael...).

 

[Vertigo-1]

The R10s lack visceral bass, if that's what you mean by slamming. In musical terms, the R10's bass lacks nothing and reveals everything.

I don't fear the list of people who think the R10's aren't extraordinary myself either, because none of them have been able to clearly hit on what I myself have only begun to hit on. Even markl's review failed to clearly state the primary strength of the R10s, which was the realism behind their sound. I mean in essence if you buy the R10s it should be because of this very reason. If there is any strength of the R10 that should be described after an audition about the R10s, it should be this. Interestingly after an audition there is not yet a single person that has brought around this point. I believe this is a new aspect of the R10s that nobody else has truly been able to describe previously, which is quite unfortunate since it is, as I say, the driving force behind the R10s.

 

[dngl]

MacD- LOL! it's ok, vert

Vert- I like that dog**** line a lot.

Where's M Rael to talk about his ATs?

 

[pigmode]

M Rael is still trying to get past not being snubbed. Har

 

[shivohum]

Quote:

The R10s lack visceral bass, if that's what you mean by slamming. In musical terms, the R10's bass lacks nothing and reveals everything.

Well, there are a couple of things to comment on now. First of all, whether the bass is visceral or not is an aspect of the music. To say that the R10 lacks visceral bass and then claim that the bass lacks nothing in musical terms is not correct; organs and drums and cellos are meant to be felt. The artists who use them use them with full knowledge of their visceral qualities. Now you can argue that to some extent headphones can't do visceral bass, but some headphones certainly do it better than others. Not having this capability at all is a clear imperfection and deviation from realism.

Second, you're right that I perhaps was not clear what I meant by "slamming." What I meant was: do you think that the R10s playing a grungy rock concert sound as grungy, as dynamic, and as harsh as it would in real life? In real life such a concert might slam you in the face, and you'd certainly hear that with certain Grados. Will the R10s convey the same sense of slam, grunge, harshness, and grit? Can the R10s scream?

Quote:

I don't fear the list of people who think the R10's aren't extraordinary myself either, because none of them have been able to clearly hit on what I myself have only begun to hit on.

But "realism," with all respect, is what practically everyone has at the back of their mind when they evaluate sound. Most everyone says "the bass is excellent" on certain headphones because they think it sounds real. People like the voices on headphones because they think they are real. Few people will say "boy this sounds totally unreal, but I still love it."

So you think that the R10 sounds perfectly real. If that didn't strike other people, perhaps that's because they didn't feel that way?

 

[markl]

Kelly,
Maybe you wouldn't dig my rig. Me, I like to maximize the smoothness all around. I want it to FLOW! I hate abrasive hashy sound, yet I listen to rock, so go figure.

Look at my equipment:

Sony SCD-333ES smooooooooth and non-digital sound

Melos Maestro-- Queen of smoooooooth, creamy dreamy amps

Sony R10--- King of smoooooooth headphones.

BTW, the R10 is the most detailed headphone I've ever heard by far, yet it maintains its smooth character, so it's not necessarily an either/or thing.

IMO, grit, hash, and harshness is an artifact of "bad" equipment. It just shouldn't be there. It's a gremlin to be dispelled from your system. I've found almost without exception that the further up the audiophile ladder I climb, the smoother the sounds of the components. At least smoothness as I define it in my head.

I want ZERO listening fatigue so I can listen longer and louder.

markl

 

[Vertigo-1]

If you want to extend realism as far as feeling the music, then no the R10s cannot help you there. But then again I'm not sure if you're in the right forum either...this is a headphone forum, and the speaker forum is that-a-way.

If a concert hurts it's because of one reason and one reason only: it's too loud. It doesn't hurt because an instrument is being played in a certain way. In that sense, sure the R10s can scream. Just turn that headphone amp up to halfway and hear them roar.

Quote:

So you think that the R10 sounds perfectly real. If that didn't strike other people, perhaps that's because they didn't feel that way?

Or perhaps they didn't listen long enough? Or maybe they listened with a noisy background? Or they didn't spend a year to understand them?

It's unfortunate but I'm going to have to point out that the R10s aren't something anybody can learn to enjoy overnight, much less within the space of a few minutes or even a few hours. If you come off a short audition liking the R10s, you're probably not even liking them for the right reasons. What we call auditioning time nowdays is just simply not enough evaluation time for them. If this puts anybody off, sorry, but it's the ugly truth.

mark, I'd probably hate your system too. Sounds a little too smooooooth for me.

 

[kwkarth]

Vert,
I think you should have quit while you were ahead. I think you've talked yourself into several corners at once man!
Cheers!

 

[markl]

shivohum,
Maybe we're not talking about the same thing.

As an example, IMO, Grados can add their own extra "zing" that's not in the recording. It's an artifact of the Grado sound. That may "turn on" some people, but not me.

BTW, I would never use a live rock show as a standard for good sound. I've been to hundreds and hundreds of shows, and the sound is almost always awful. I sure wouldn't want to replicate that in my home environment, but that's me.

markl