[Ghoostknight]

Hey

i was wondering if some people know songs that are recorded with tube gear, there must be a time period where this was common, im looking for checking out "true tube amp sound" since it should implement harmonics just like it does when playing back on a tube amp, right?

(i know that saturator plugins exist, i tried them but its hard to figure out a realistic level of harmonics, specially if you never heared tube amps)

 

[bigshot]

Anything recorded previous to the 1950s should fit your requirements, particularly recordings from between 1939 and 1942. I've found that some of those are loaded with distortion.

 

[Ghoostknight]

Anything recorded previous to the 1950s should fit your requirements, particularly recordings from between 1939 and 1942. I've found that some of those are loaded with distortion.

oh that early? i was hoping for some 1970 or later stuff

i listening into some 1940s stuff and yea i guess i can hear the harmonics but overall it sounds kinda rubbish xD (thats also why i usually avoid 1960 and earlier stuff) not sure how much microphones improved since 1940 but its hard to conclude something regarding prefering tube sound or not if the overall quality isnt that good (or atleast less then what i usually listen to)

might that be the reason why i usually listen to 1970+ stuff, because most of it is already on transistor recorded? lets say AC/DC

 

[bigshot]

What you call "rubbish" is distortion. That's what "tube sound" is. I don't know why you argue to ridiculous extremes against distortion in one thread, and then go searching it out in another.... no wait... yes I do.

 

[Ghoostknight]

What you call "rubbish" is distortion.

That's what "tube sound" is.

well maybe from tube gear from 1940, i think things got different with current tube gear, atleast i hope so

I don't know why you argue to ridiculous extremes against distortion in one thread, and then go searching it out in another.

because those are two completely different kinds of distortion, distortion is just a generalized word for all sound altering things

no wait... yes I do.

well you probably dont

 

[bigshot]

Some modern tube amps are clean enough to sound as good as solid state amps. But if you're talking about "tube sound", you aren't talking about those.

High fidelity means no audible distortion.

 

[71 dB]

Not all distortion is the same thou. Depending on how harmonics are generated and how much, distortion can sound anything from pleasant to very nasty. I often add the first even harmonic while making my own music, because it can make the sound richer if done right.

 

[Ghoostknight]

what seems kinda fascanating about harmonic distortion after some listening to it is that it sort of adds 3 dimensionality where low distortion sounds kinda flat sound stage wise
also there is a audible effect of dynamic range reduction, i think thats why many say it sounds more pleasing, i have the problem myself huge volume swings sound kinda irratating, specially in rock for example

i also think that the distortion can definitely be heared by itself, it sort of sounds like a "slight white noise effect"

i definitely get why people might prefer it, im just trying to figure out if its something i want myself, either trough a vst plugin (saturator) or a actual tube preamplifier but i guess the tubes also bring in some kind of own tone, even if its not represented just by harmonics
i just like the vst plugin route since its cheap, can be adjusted really to your taste and you can turn it off easly, i just need to figure out what actual "current high end tube gear" sounds like people seem to like so much to not overdue the saturator plugin

maybe the best way would be to get a vst plugin that visualizes the harmonics and compare it to some tube amp measurements

 

[gregorio]

i was wondering if some people know songs that are recorded with tube gear

The vast majority of pop songs, virtually all rock and metal songs. In fact pretty much everything except most acoustic music genres (such as classical music) and some electronic music.

there must be a time period where this was common

Yep, that period would be the 1920’s to the present day.

im looking for checking out "true tube amp sound" since it should implement harmonics just like it does when playing back on a tube amp, right?

No, wrong, for several reasons!
There’s no such thing as a “true amp sound”. Tube amps cause harmonic distortion and inter-modulation distortion (IMD). Exactly which harmonics are created/distorted and what IMD is created depends not only on the exact tube but by how much it’s overdriven. So even the exact same tube will have a significantly different sound and starting in the 1940’s musicians (guitarists at that time) started taking advantage of that fact and deliberately overdriving their tube amps. In the 50’s and 60’s, the types and amounts of tube distortion applied were greatly expanded (even to the point of deliberately using damaged/misaligned tubes) and also deliberately applied to other instruments/vocals.
Therefore “true tube amp sound” could be almost anything and it’s extremely unlikely “to implement harmonics just like it does when playing back on a tube amp”. In fact, assuming the playback/consumer tube amp isn’t faulty or deliberately overdriven, the harmonic distortion/IMD should be below audibility and therefore there would be no “tube amp sound”, which is why no one could tell the difference in the 1970’s and 80’s between tube and SS amps under controlled conditions.

So, your request really doesn’t make much sense!

what seems kinda fascanating about harmonic distortion after some listening to it is that it sort of adds 3 dimensionality where low distortion sounds kinda flat sound stage wise

No, it doesn’t affect “dimensionality”/sound stage. However, as higher frequency harmonics are typically created, that can affect the perception of an altered sound-stage. Although it depends on individual perception and the playback environment, so is not predictable when creating a mix.

also there is a audible effect of dynamic range reduction, i think thats why many say it sounds more pleasing, i have the problem myself huge volume swings sound kinda irratating, specially in rock for example

Hang on, in the 16bit vs 24bit thread just one day earlier you stated: “more dynamic range = better” - Unless “kinda irritating” is somehow better, you’re completely contradicting yourself! Why is that?

G

 

[Ghoostknight]

The vast majority of pop songs, virtually all rock and metal songs. In fact pretty much everything except most acoustic music genres (such as classical music) and some electronic music.

In fact, assuming the playback/consumer tube amp isn’t faulty or deliberately overdriven, the harmonic distortion/IMD should be below audibility and therefore there would be no “tube amp sound”, which is why no one could tell the difference in the 1970’s and 80’s between tube and SS amps under controlled conditions.

hmm this might be the reason why i didnt noticed it "directly", i could guess on some songs but its hard to say

tho im unsure if i imagined it but with the saturator plugin even a 99% dry mix 1% wet was noticable in direct comparison, its a slight effect
im using the saturator plugin by calf studio plugins because i use linux, maybe its worth looking into other plugins that visualize the harmonics

Hang on, in the 16bit vs 24bit thread just one day earlier you stated: “more dynamic range = better” - Unless “kinda irritating” is somehow better, you’re completely contradicting yourself! Why is that?

i never said i need myself 110db dynamic range... just that if we speak about a digital format more dynamic range "for free" is in theory better, of course i know 110db, well even 90db dyanmic range is hard to get with microphones/speakers/amps/recordings
tho i still think that dither extending the dynamic range of CD, so even 110db are noticable (if the volume is turned up) is a cool "fun fact", even if this extended dynamic range is unusable for practical reasons and it sitting "inside the noisefloor" doesnt make it really better

 

[old tech]

Many (most) of Steve Hoffman's masterings are done through tube gear, for example Paul McCartney CDs. However I agree there is no such thing as a tube sound, unless you mean the type of distorted sound through tubes. The reality is that a tube amp can be as transparent as a solid state amp but that is not the criterion most tube enthusiasts apply when looking for an amp.

 

[gregorio]

i never said i need myself 110db dynamic range... just that if we speak about a digital format more dynamic range "for free" is in theory better

16bit allows roughly 120dB dynamic range for free.

well even 90db dyanmic range is hard to get with microphones/speakers/amps/recordings

90dB dynamic range with amps is common/usual. I don’t know of any studio mics with a 90dB dynamic range, lower 80s is usually the most and more commonly mid 70s. Speakers generally about the same or worse. Recordings though, extremely rarely more than 60dB dynamic range and typically 50dB or less.

even 110db are noticable (if the volume is turned up) is a cool "fun fact"

Everything is audible (within the hearing freq spectrum) if you amplify it enough. Of course though you can’t listen to a recording at that level without causing pretty much instant hearing damage, so it’s not “audible”.

G

 

[71 dB]

The vast majority of pop songs, virtually all rock and metal songs. In fact pretty much everything except most acoustic music genres (such as classical music) and some electronic music.

This is an area I don't know much about and I have to say I am surprised to hear "vast majority" of pop songs and virtually all rock/metal songs are recorded using tube gear. In the 2020's? Really? Why?

 

[gregorio]

This is an area I don't know much about and I have to say I am surprised to hear "vast majority" of pop songs and virtually all rock/metal songs are recorded using tube gear. In the 2020's? Really? Why?

You tend to find quite a bit of tube gear in the major established studios. This is typically because they’ve owned it since it was current, it has been meticulously maintained and has been “fashionable”/famous for decades. Common mic examples would be Neumann’s M50s and U47s. Although maybe not as common, you do sometimes see a tube mic-preamp in a rack, Avalon is a well known example. It’s a similar story with some mastering engineers, particularly the older famous ones tend to use a vintage compressor and/or limiter. However, it’s the guitarists (and bass players) where you find most widespread use of tube gear, tube amps and/or “fuzz boxes”, but analogue synth musicians commonly have some tube gear in their chains. Adding all that up, it would be extremely rare (almost unheard of) not to find any tube gear at all, anywhere in the recording, mixing or mastering process of a pop song if the track has been produced in a major studio and mastered by a top/good mastering engineer.

G

 

[71 dB]

You tend to find quite a bit of tube gear in the major established studios.

I don't doubt that. Of course major studios have all kind of gear, but another thing is how often the gear is actually used. I would have imagined use of tube gear these days rare and special and instead relying on saturation/tube amp simulation plugins, because that way you can control the amount of non-linearity while mixing.

This is typically because they’ve owned it since it was current, it has been meticulously maintained and has been “fashionable”/famous for decades. Common mic examples would be Neumann’s M50s and U47s. Although maybe not as common, you do sometimes see a tube mic-preamp in a rack, Avalon is a well known example. It’s a similar story with some mastering engineers, particularly the older famous ones tend to use a vintage compressor and/or limiter. However, it’s the guitarists (and bass players) where you find most widespread use of tube gear, tube amps and/or “fuzz boxes”, but analogue synth musicians commonly have some tube gear in their chains. Adding all that up, it would be extremely rare (almost unheard of) not to find any tube gear at all, anywhere in the recording, mixing or mastering process of a pop song if the track has been produced in a major studio and mastered by a top/good mastering engineer.

G

Okay, but it is just hard for me to imagine say Calvin Harris use tube gear while producing Rita Ora's "I Will Never Let You Down."