[bigshot]

you can even finetune it to your liking which is a huge plus imo...i also havent noticed a quality degredation (well beside the added distortion)
and... i dont wanna test 20 different gears just to decide which distortion profile i like the most.

^this

 

[Ghoostknight]

^this

i think just the distortion isnt all what makes the sound of tube gear, so it might not be a "true tube gear expierence" but its probably the biggest part of it, atleast its something that is easily reproducable
i heared that tube amps are genereally picky with speakers which can change the sound

---

i kinda felt like it so i did it earlier then expected, here is my playlist of songs that *i think* uses tube distortion/saturation:
https://www.deezer.com/de/playlist/11762050581

1. i might be wrong with some songs
2. some songs might use distortion but its not "true tube distortion"
3. some if not all songs just use saturation on individual instruments or vocals ("Sorry (Dont Ask Me) - All too much" is a song that i think is closest to using tube distortion "overall" instead of individual tracks, which is closer to a tube gear expierence that effects all frequencys imo)
4. some songs use "unrealistic" levels of distortion

take the playlist with a grain of salt or correct me since i cant verify it beside comparing it

 

[bigshot]

If a tube does something beyond just distortion, like dynamic shaping or something like that, the DSP can be programmed to do that too.

 

[gregorio]

i played a bit around with the saturator plugin and an analyzer (+ looking up some measurements of tube gear, which suggest H1 is usually between -40 and -60db)

Looking up tube gear won’t help much. The specifications given are pretty much always at nominal (ideal) conditions, however the reason people use tube gear when recording/mixing/mastering is for that tube distortion. So typically, they are “overdriven” (not operating at nominal levels) and therefore producing more distortion than their specs indicate, vastly more distortion in some cases (particularly with guitar amps).

i think just the distortion isnt all what makes the sound of tube gear

It is, although in some cases there maybe an audible effect of impedance. However, I don’t know what you mean by “H1” distortion? Are you only considering the 1st harmonic distortion? Tubes produce a “spray” of harmonics, even and odd plus, that “spray” of harmonics varies/increases significantly the more you overdrive the tube. Furthermore, tube distortion isn’t only in the form of harmonic distortion, tubes also distort the signal similarly to a compressor, produce intermodulation distortion and increase the noise floor, all of which also increase the more the tube is overdriven.

Our hearing partially relies on frequency response to calculate the position in space of a sound source, so adding frequencies (harmonic distortion) can, under the right conditions, change our perception of the soundstage, particularly with headphones. Additionally, if we have an instrument/sound with a relatively simple or limited harmonic response, then adding a bunch of extra harmonics will obviously make it sound richer. That’s why some harmonic distortion is described as “euphonic” and why in many genres of music it’s so commonly/routinely applied (either with actual tube gear, plugin emulators or generic plugin saturators).

G

 

[Ghoostknight]

Looking up tube gear won’t help much. The specifications given are pretty much always at nominal (ideal) conditions, however the reason people use tube gear when recording/mixing/mastering is for that tube distortion. So typically, they are “overdriven” (not operating at nominal levels) and therefore producing more distortion than their specs indicate, vastly more distortion in some cases (particularly with guitar amps).

kinda true, i guess its something that is mostly driven by preference, i just wanted to make sure to be "kinda close" to ("good") tube gear in regards of distortion levels, just to see what the fuzz is about people loving tube gear so much for reproduction, specially if you never heared it before you are prone to overdue it, just like i did before looking realistic levels (measurements of tube gear) up

It is, although in some cases there maybe an audible effect of impedance.

yea i think impedance matching was the thing with speakers/tube amp matching
i honestly cant say myself, i never heared tube gear, i just assumed what people are saying about it, the differences heared by people could be purely the distortion profile or some mix of the distortion profile + some "side effects" of using tubes beside the distortion

However, I don’t know what you mean by “H1” distortion? Are you only considering the 1st harmonic distortion?Tubes produce a “spray” of harmonics, even an odd plus, that “spray” of harmonics varies significantly the more you overdrive the tube.

yea the plugin that im using is doing this descending "spray" of harmonics, odd ones to some level too, i was just referencing the first harmonic (H1) to match the level of "the whole thing" since i cant do much in terms of how the harmonics are distributed, it might be interesting to see what other plugins do differently than the one im using

Furthermore, tube distortion isn’t only in the form of harmonic distortion, tubes also distort the signal similarly to a compressor, produce intermodulation distortion and increase the noise floor, all of which also increase the more the tube is overdriven.

so to truely replicate tubes i would need to use a compressor too? just with distortion im kinda hearing a slight compressor effect but its not much, it makes peaks more pleasant to listen to somehow without "really" compressing

Our hearing partially relies on frequency response to calculate the position in space of a sound source, so adding frequencies (harmonic distortion) can, under the right conditions, change our perception of the soundstage, particularly with headphones. Additionally, if we have an instrument/sound with a relatively simple or limited harmonic response, then adding a bunch of extra harmonics will obviously make it sound richer. That’s why some harmonic distortion is described as “euphonic” and why in many genres of music it’s so commonly/routinely applied (either with actual tube gear, plugin emulators or generic plugin saturators).

its definitely a cool illusion imo, you dont get this kind of soundstage, even with perfect speaker placement i think

i heared most changes soundstage wise in somewhat "sharp/clean" sounding instruments or vocals (like the guitar in this song: "Landmark - Antonio Forcione") and guitaramps are definitely a prime example of how cool it can sound, even heavily overdriven

If a tube does something beyond just distortion, like dynamic shaping or something like that, the DSP can be programmed to do that too.

some people (producers) still seem to like often analog devices more than their plugin emulation counterpart, tho i guess this heavily depends on how much effort went into the emulation, but i kinda believe that there are perfect or close to perfect device emulations out there

 

[gregorio]

i guess its something that is mostly driven by preference

It’s entirely 100% driven by preference!

i never heared tube gear, i just assumed what people are saying about it

That’s a big mistake! Audiophiles have been making any number of assertions about tube power amps for 50 years but then all of a sudden all those night and day differences vanish completely once they can’t see which amp they’re listening to!

i just wanted to make sure to be "kinda close" to ("good") tube gear in regards of distortion levels, just to see what the fuzz is about people loving tube gear so much for reproduction

Good tube gear used properly (not deliberately overdriven) typically doesn’t produce any audible distortion.

i was just referencing the first harmonic (H1) to match the level of "the whole thing" since i cant do much in terms of how the harmonics are distributed …

That’s not going to work well, odd harmonics are more audible, some tube gear produces mostly 1st harmonic distortion, others produce almost equally high levels of distortion in higher harmonics and this all varies depending on overdrive levels, so it’s not even the same with exactly the same tube. Unless you can figure out some loudness normalisation level, you’re not going to know how much of what you’re perceiving is just down to differing levels.

it might be interesting to see what other plugins do differently than the one im using

Yes, there is great variation between many plugins because they may be reproducing one particular tube distortion, all the various tube distortions, might be modelled on a specific tube or any combination of any of the various types of tube distortion. Remember as well that different tubes produce different distortions and even the same tube does depending on how much it’s overdriven.

so to truely replicate tubes i would need to use a compressor too?

That depends on your plugin, it might already be applying some compression as part of the tube distortion it’s producing or it might only be applying harmonic distortion. Note also, that a “saturation” plugin might not be trying to reproduce the saturation distortion of tubes, it might be trying to reproduce the saturation distortion produced by tape recorders or overdriving/saturating other solid state analogue equipment (such as a mic pre-amp or mixing desk/channel).

G

 

[gregorio]

A couple of (IMO) important points I missed:

its definitely a cool illusion imo, you dont get this kind of soundstage, even with perfect speaker placement i think

What illusion? Be careful because there are vital variables here! The soundstage you perceive from this effect will depend on the following:
1. What is the frequency content of what you’re distorting and therefore what harmonics/frequencies is the harmonic distortion going to produce?
2. How does that frequency response interact with the FR of your cans or the response of your speakers/room acoustics.
3. What is your personal HRTF and how does your perception respond to the above variables?

In other words, the illusion you get with the music your playing, on your equipment and with your hearing/perception is unlikely to be exactly the same if you change any of those variables and likely to be significantly different if you change all of them (EG. For someone else, playing different music on different HPs or speakers/room).

just with distortion im kinda hearing a slight compressor effect but its not much, it makes peaks more pleasant to listen to somehow without "really" compressing

Either it is compression or just your perception of the harmonic distortion on the transients.

Your post raises one other important consideration: The musicians (mainly guitarists and synth player) have carefully chosen/tweaked the type and amount of distortion on their instruments. The mix engineer has carefully chosen/tweaked the types and amounts of distortion they’ve added to some other instruments and groups of instruments and the mastering engineer has carefully chosen/tweaked the types and amounts of distortion they’ve applied to the whole mix. There shouldn’t be too little or too much. Maybe you personally prefer adding even more, just as you might prefer adding even more bass to the already carefully crafted amount of bass. That’s up to you of course but it’s lower fidelity, you’re not going to hear what the artists intended and it might work well (for you) on some tracks but worse on others (that maybe already have a great deal of distortion (or bass) applied).

G

 

[Ghoostknight]

That’s not going to work well, odd harmonics are more audible, some tube gear produces mostly 1st harmonic distortion, others produce almost equally high levels of distortion in higher harmonics and this all varies depending on overdrive levels, so it’s not even the same with exactly the same tube. Unless you can figure out some loudness normalisation level, you’re not going to know how much of what you’re perceiving is just down to differing levels.

of course i have oriented around the most prominent harmonic which is H1 with the plugin im using

i dont wanna replicate 1:1 one specific tube amp either, but get to a somewhat similar level of the most common (current) ones which seems to be around -60db for the most dominant harmonic, this is still audible imo

with the saturation settings im using input level equals output level +/- 0,1db, i think this is close enough for comparision

Yes, there is great variation between many plugins because they may be reproducing one particular tube distortion, all the various tube distortions, might be modelled on a specific tube or any combination of any of the various types of tube distortion. Remember as well that different tubes produce different distortions and even the same tube does depending on how much it’s overdriven.

unfortunaly there are not many linux native plugins, i might need to play around with wine for using VST plugins, i tried it before but wasnt able to get it working with carla, i might need to try again

That depends on your plugin, it might already be applying some compression as part of the tube distortion it’s producing or it might only be applying harmonic distortion.

atleast i think that the one im using is only applying distortion

What illusion? Be careful because there are vital variables here! The soundstage you perceive from this effect will depend on the following:

well the illusion of a greater soundstage, i dont think wider/deeper soundstage is the right word here... "larger" or more 3d soundstage matches more of what im hearing

The soundstage you perceive from this effect will depend on the following:
1. What is the frequency content of what you’re distorting and therefore what harmonics/frequencies is the harmonic distortion going to produce?
2. How does that frequency response interact with the FR of your cans or the response of your speakers/room acoustics.
3. What is your personal HRTF and how does your perception respond to the above variables?

In other words, the illusion you get with the music your playing, on your equipment and with your hearing/perception is unlikely to be exactly the same if you change any of those variables and likely to be significantly different if you change all of them (EG. For someone else, playing different music on different HPs or speakers/room).

probably true, soundstage overall is a illusion not just depending on the saturation so it will change with very minimal changes but the "sense of a soundstage" stays kinda the same, im not sure how to name it tho

Either it is compression or just your perception of the harmonic distortion on the transients.

imo its the harmonic distortion on transients, well atleast my theory is that the distortion acts kinda as a new "noiselevel" reference point for the brain so the volume difference to the transient peak isnt "as huge" as without distortion and thus sounding less dynamic, its overall a slight but noticable effect, it makes the music more pleasant on dynamic speakers (which is funny since everyone demands greater and greater dynamics...)

Your post raises one other important consideration: The musicians (mainly guitarists and synth player) have carefully chosen/tweaked the type and amount of distortion on their instruments. The mix engineer has carefully chosen/tweaked the types and amounts of distortion they’ve added to some other instruments and groups of instruments and the mastering engineer has carefully chosen/tweaked the types and amounts of distortion they’ve applied to the whole mix. There shouldn’t be too little or too much. Maybe you personally prefer adding even more, just as you might prefer adding even more bass to the already carefully crafted amount of bass.

yes i agree, and this bothers me too (since im kinda a advocat of staying true to the source), for the most part i like the added distortion but i certainly found some songs where i prefer it not and its also mood dependent, added "tube" distortion makes it more pleasant/foot tapping like and without it sounds more "agressive/dynamic/"clear""
while i like it for the most part i probably will keep using plugins, so i can still disable it, also true tube gear comes with alot of downsides like degredation/running costs etc

That’s up to you of course but it’s lower fidelity, you’re not going to hear what the artists intended and it might work well (for you) on some tracks but worse on others (that maybe already have a great deal of distortion (or bass) applied).

well objectively speaking its indeed lower fidelity... but "is it really?", it doesnt sound "worse" so to speak, it mainly depends on your taste i would say, for one its lower fidelity and for another higher fidelity

which i also should mention is this ... i prefer rather -60db harmonics instead of -40db ... -40db was just to much for me, i like the mix of a slight tube effect but staying somewhat on the solidstate realm, you can definitely mix and match with the amount of distortion to make it work well for most music (for your taste)

and the more i listen to added saturation (and comparing) the more sensitive i seem to get, i was even able to spot -70db in a/b testing recently but the effect is nearly not worth mentioning so for me its either -55 to -65db or off
to get a worthwhile expierence with most if not all music its definitely less is more for me, tho depending on your mood -40db can be fun for a while too (but this gets into territory where i would say electronic/rap etc sounds worse than without, specially because the less hitting deeper basses)

 

[Ghoostknight]

what the goal was, and what i was able to understand now is why many people love their tube gear,
unfortunaly we still live in a time where most stuff still gets done in the analogue realm, analogue eq`s, analogue crossovers etc... some refuse to go digital for the added convenience and even then its not that easy to run VST plugins, specially with windows without degredation imo
so people try to tweak their systems with analogue means ... for example get new speakers if you dont like the frequency response instead of getting flat ones and tweak them to your liking (of course there is more to speakers than this but just as a generalization)
... or get a tube amp if you like the effect and "just" can decide between solidstate and tubes, tho i dont wanna lean too much out of the window here since i havent heared tube gear myself... maybe there are even more effects im missing out on, specially if i compare tube rolling to opamp rolling (which also makes more differences than purely frequency response)

 

[Ghoostknight]

The mix engineer has carefully chosen/tweaked the types and amounts of distortion they’ve added to some other instruments and groups of instruments and the mastering engineer has carefully chosen/tweaked the types and amounts of distortion they’ve applied to the whole mix. There shouldn’t be too little or too much. Maybe you personally prefer adding even more, just as you might prefer adding even more bass to the already carefully crafted amount of bass.

also to add to this: imo a engineer trys to make their music work on as many systems as possible, just think about what different speakers can do, so adding a bit of bass etc isnt really "overstepping" the work that the engineer has done, its more like giving your system the last touch to make it (for you) perfect, there are too many variables to even think about having the same exact sound as the engineer had, so just make it work for you (tho what i agree with, if you have a preference, less is often more in the long run to not overdue things...)

imo even two speakers with the exact same dispersion etc but with different frequency responses "profiles" of +/- 1db flat will still sound different!! specially with the different kind of reflections in your room etc... unfortunaly there is no "perfect" in audio, just what you personally like more and i had to learn this the hard way... since i got my studio monitors a few years back i was really unhappy with them in the beginning while running them flat... maybe i just wasnt used to it but im way more happy now with my applied small-ish house curve

 

[bigshot]

Shhhh! He’s using the DSP as a placebo device.

 

[Ghoostknight]

Shhhh! He’s using the DSP as a placebo device.

Shhh! No.

 

[gregorio]

of course i have oriented around the most prominent harmonic which is H1 with the plugin im using

No, as I explained, the first harmonic would generally be the highest level harmonic but may not be the most audibly prominent.

i dont wanna replicate 1:1 one specific tube amp either, but get to a somewhat similar level of the most common (current) ones which seems to be around -60db for the most dominant harmonic, this is still audible imo

A modern tube amp should have nominal distortion around -80dB, unless it’s overdriven, faulty or deliberately defective.

with the saturation settings im using input level equals output level +/- 0,1db, i think this is close enough for comparision

No, even an identical output level would not necessarily be close enough for comparison, as the frequency response is different.

atleast i think that the one im using is only applying distortion

So you don’t know.

probably true, soundstage overall is a illusion not just depending on the saturation so it will change with very minimal changes but the "sense of a soundstage" stays kinda the same

Your perception of soundstage may change with “very minimal changes” or it may not, it depends on the changes and your personal perception.

imo its the harmonic distortion on transients …. the volume difference to the transient peak isnt "as huge" as without distortion and thus sounding less dynamic

Then it would be the opposite of what you’re claiming, as you would get a larger volume difference because the tube would add more distortion in response to the higher level transients.

well objectively speaking its indeed lower fidelity... but "is it really?"

Yes. …

it doesnt sound "worse" so to speak, it mainly depends on your taste i would say, for one its lower fidelity and for another higher fidelity

No, for both it’s lower fidelity! That lower fidelity may not sound worse to you personally (and some other people) but that just means you prefer lower fidelity, it doesn’t mean that the fidelity magically changes depending on who’s listening to it. You are confusing personal preference with fidelity, two different things!

imo a engineer trys to make their music work on as many systems as possible, just think about what different speakers can do, so adding a bit of bass etc isnt really "overstepping" the work that the engineer has done, its more like giving your system the last touch to make it (for you) perfect

It IS “really overstepping the work that the engineer has done”! The only potential exceptions are: Your system is producing less bass than anticipated by the engineers or that the mastering engineer has made a mistake. It’s very difficult/impossible to know if either exception is applicable but generally with commercial recordings it wouldn’t be.

G