Some Whiplash TWag V1 Cables Turning Green (Split from JH13 Appreciation Thread)

May 25, 2011 at 10:43 PM Post #107 of 242
Parrots, I've read what's going on, and it seems to me that they're addressing this reasonably.
 
Now stop cross-posting in the main forums.  And let these vendors rectify the situation.  I understand your frustration, but now it's time to let them make this right, which they seem to me to be aiming to do.
 
And, frankly, this back and forth between you and Lee is going nowhere.
 
May 25, 2011 at 11:46 PM Post #108 of 242
Parrots, please, give this a rest.  You're clearly in the wrong here, from what I can see.  I've read every post in this thread, and honestly, if I didn't know better, you do have a hidden agenda.  You are ignoring the fact that CryoParts and Whiplash are doing everything in their power to rectify the situation.  They couldn't possibly do more short of giving everyone in this thread a free cable, which would be ridiculous.  What is it you want?  You've beaten this to death already.  They made a mistake.  They admitted their mistake.  They're trusting that your test was accurate, and that the facility you sent it to is legitimate.  What more do you want?  Do you want them to shut their doors and stop producing cables entirely?
 
May 25, 2011 at 11:58 PM Post #109 of 242


Quote:
Parrots, please, give this a rest.  You're clearly in the wrong here, from what I can see.  I've read every post in this thread, and honestly, if I didn't know better, you do have a hidden agenda.  You are ignoring the fact that CryoParts and Whiplash are doing everything in their power to rectify the situation.  They couldn't possibly do more short of giving everyone in this thread a free cable, which would be ridiculous.  What is it you want?  You've beaten this to death already.  They made a mistake.  They admitted their mistake.  They're trusting that your test was accurate, and that the facility you sent it to is legitimate.  What more do you want?  Do you want them to shut their doors and stop producing cables entirely?

How could Parrots possibly be in the wrong for exposing the fact that Cryoparts and Whiplash were selling copper alloyed silver as pure silver?
 
The sole reason that Cryoparts and whiplash have admitted to making a mistake at all is that Parrots caught them out and proved what they had done.
 
Please explain.
 
 
 
May 26, 2011 at 12:30 AM Post #110 of 242
I admit that Parrots may have had noble intentions at first - but all that had to be done was do the tests, then show them to people.  The personal attacks on the people running the company were uncalled for.  They said that they did not know the cables weren't pure, because they simply did not test every batch.  This is because they trusted their supplier, who clearly didn't deserve such trust.
 
I simply doubt that they were purposely selling cables that aren't pure.  But you seem to claim that they did in fact know.  I guess this is where our views differ.
 
May 26, 2011 at 12:33 AM Post #111 of 242


Quote:
How could Parrots possibly be in the wrong for exposing the fact that Cryoparts and Whiplash were selling copper alloyed silver as pure silver?
 
The sole reason that Cryoparts and whiplash have admitted to making a mistake at all is that Parrots caught them out and proved what they had done.
 
Please explain.
 
 



Everyone...
 
I'm not admitting to anything since I buy the wire and make cables. So there is no agenda on my side at all. 
 
All I can do is help in this matter. I cant say that enough...
 
Craig
 
May 26, 2011 at 12:45 AM Post #112 of 242
I'm not claiming to know what's going on here, but from my point of view, selling cables and advertising them as having an effect on sound reproduction is fraud in itself. I wasn't at all surprised to hear that cables advertised as 99,9998% pure silver was in fact not. No one can be sure that Lee or Craig knew before-hand that they were selling wire with a high copper content, but it's very easy to be noble and honest when you've just been found out.
 
Regardless, people who've had their wallets raped to get the wire in question have a right to know.
 
May 26, 2011 at 3:45 AM Post #113 of 242
Full disclosure:

1.) I am a member of the trade (I own www.sonicweld.com)
2.) Lee Weiland has been a very close personal friend, business advisor, and confidant of mine for nearly twenty years
3.) Lee promotes and sells Sonicweld products

I have been following this thread with a growing sense of frustration.  I had not intended to contribute to it, but was provoked to do so by inflammatory statements like these from Parrots:

“I belive he knew exactly what this wire was made of and did not want anyone testing it and it becoming public...”

“I belive every single V1 cable out there is not pure silver and this was known by Lee at cryo parts before he offered it for sale...”

“I belive this is because he knows what those results would show which is why he never had them tested”

It is one thing to express one’s opinion, good or bad, of a product or a business; ostensibly, such exchange of ideas is what forums like Head-Fi are for.  I respect the right of anyone here to express such opinions.  To me, it is quite another matter to posit such unfounded, hurtful conjectures about someone’s business practices, motives, and character - words which are indelibly and publicly recorded, and which are able to prick afresh new minds and visitors for years to come, should they stand unchallenged.  I find these statements particularly offensive because they suggest a callous, calculating deceptiveness which I know to be diametrically opposed to Lee’s personality, ethics, and business practices.

I fully realize, given my disclosures above, that some of you may dismiss my defending of Lee as predictable, self-serving, and disingenuous.  Be that as it may, but I think I’m about as well qualified as anyone on the planet to comment on Lee’s nature.  I have never known Lee to engage in deliberate deception or to treat a customer unfairly; to the contrary, he has long been an example to me of professionalism and fair-mindedness.  I’ve seen him bend over backwards for his customers on occasions too numerous to recall, often taking a financial loss in the process.  I have high standards for those who represent my products, and if I ever felt that Lee was engaged in deceptive or dishonest business practices he wouldn’t be selling them, our long friendship notwithstanding.  I haven’t had the pleasure of knowing Craig at Whiplash Audio for nearly as long as I have Lee, but he also sells my products, and I have no reason to believe that Craig is a person of any less integrity than Lee.

I’d like to close with some observations about some of the key issues in this thread.   Any manufacturer in this industry necessarily relies on suppliers (often hundreds of them) for parts and materials.  No one grows their own silicon ingots, and no one refines their own silver ore.  As raw materials acquire more value by progressing through the transforming processes of the supply and manufacturing chain, there is an implicit trust between vendors that makes the whole mechanism work.  Sometimes that trust is augmented by formal standards-based certifications like ISO9000 and the like, but ultimately each order placed is still a leap of faith for any manufacturer.  Provided that proper diligence has been done in qualifying a supplier, it is the exception to suffer a delivery of sub-par or misrepresented goods, but it does happen on occasion, and this sort of thing could have happened to any manufacturer.  It has certainly happened to me many times; I’ve just been through the maddening experience of receiving three sequential bad batches of very expensive circuit boards from a trusted vendor I’ve done business with for more than a decade.  Whether or not such incidents constitute duplicity on the part of the supplier, debacles like this represent many thousands of dollars of losses that simply have to absorbed as a cost of doing business.  No reputable manufacturer wants to allow bad parts or materials into their product because they create big headaches, frustrated customers, and financial losses.  When that does happen unintentionally, the difference between a good and bad business is how such problems are handled.  Craig and Lee are offering to replace the product in question courteously and promptly, and at their expense.  What’s more, Lee has shown a level of transparency and accountability about his wire that is unprecedented in my experience; I’ve never seen another wire manufacturer disclose independent material assay results.  It is difficult to imagine that more could be reasonably expected of Lee and Craig, yet a witch hunt sort of atmosphere persists in this thread.

I realize that business practices in today’s world of seemingly endless frauds and scandals invite a certain degree of deserved cynicism (mostly on the part of large corporations), but I find it disheartening that many forum philosophers or self-styled experts are so quick to assume that by default, small high-end audio manufacturers are collectively unscrupulous, willing and anxious to scam their customers at any opportunity, laughing all the way to the bank as they pocket their “hundreds of thousands” of ill-gotten profits.   Yes, I can affirm from my own sad experience that there are a few bad eggs in this business, but I would aver that the majority of the people in our audio world are very hard-working, honest, and chose to operate in this sphere because they love the industry, the avocation it serves, and the satisfaction of sharing musical joy with their customers.  Lee and Craig are great examples of the latter type, and I stand by them and their reputations publicly.

Josh Heiner
Sonicweld

 
 
May 26, 2011 at 7:47 AM Post #115 of 242
Mistakes happen and I think Lee and Craig have acted honorably and done what any reputable dealer would do, and that is to correct the error or anomaly as soon as possible. It's time we give them some credit.   This whole thread has come dangerously closely to libel, and I certainly hope neither Craig nor Lee's business has been harmed by some of the comments made here.
 
May 26, 2011 at 10:48 AM Post #118 of 242


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonsofquestions /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So ... what's happening to all the V1 models that are getting returned?
I'd totally be interested in buying one - but at a significantly discounted price.



Just for the record, I was only half joking here. Reselling these TWag V1 cables could be a way to recoup some of the losses on the replacements. Or am I the only one interested in a reduced-content cable for a reduced price?
 
 
May 26, 2011 at 11:23 AM Post #119 of 242
Wow, i had meant to post in here a couple of weeks ago, composed a post and found that the type of post was not exactly what was needed. I started editing it but life got in the way and havent been back to these forums really until yesterday. Just to get it out in the open for those that dont know; I am an oem for Cryoparts and regularly use Lee's products (not exclusively) among others in my every day business. I dont have TWAg, but have the other wires in the catalogue and i think its kinda interesting that nobody else has mentioned, or thought of the fact that this is not the only silver wire that is on Lee's product list. There is also SCSCAg and i have been using this for years personally with to my knowledge no issues for me or my customers. TWCu also doesnt go green, hell even the actual SPC doesnt turn green ime due to the ingenious dielectric compound. TWCu is pretty much the only copper wire with clear flexible jacket that i have used that doesnt in fact, one of the main reasons i like it so much. I bought 3 x 100m rolls that i have been using for 2 years now and they are fine.
 
Anyway back on point, dont you think it would be kinda strange if deliberately trying to defraud people (which is outrageous BTW, knowing Lee) that one wire specifically would be singled out? Do you really think there is that much money in our little sector here? It would only serve as a point of concern for other much more lucrative sections of Lee's customer base if found out. TWAg is fairly specifically developed for and marketed at the headphone and portable audio sector, other areas do not so much need its virtues and in some circles solid wire is definitely preferred. 
 
The feeding frenzy that developed here is shameful and unfortunately not out of character for this forum lately. The amount of people that have joined in to throw fuel on the fire that are not involved is telling of the type of members we are getting these days. I do not know what else he was supposed to do, he obviously tested it regularly and then he began to trust the manufacturer after not being given any reason for distrust; this has been found to be folly but that is all it is,
 
The suggestion that this was a deliberate attempt to defraud is patently ridiculous on many levels, financially for the business and from what i know of the man, personally as well. Lee is good people and the fact you have scared him away from participating is a shame. He has sold off all his headphone gear pretty much and the chances of him developing another wire, or product specifically for our market is now slim to say the least I would think (sorry if i'm putting words in your mouth here mate). 
 
When it was brought up by more than a passing email from an anonymous someone with an ebay test and motives that were unclear, he took all reasonable steps to get to the heart of the matter and now rectify it. surely that is all that could be expected of the man? to me as JayDee said, i have never seen anyone in the wire business give away this sort of information and you can bet there has been others with more controversial findings than this, a certain garden hose comes to mind.
 
Having spoken to Lee about this, i can assure you he has been taking it very seriously; as he should be; It is definitely an area for concern. 
 
again, i am a Cryoparts oem, not TWAg however, so posting in here does not serve to defend my interests, quite the contrary and it will be my first and last post in this thread.
 
 
Very well put JayDee!!
 
May 26, 2011 at 1:10 PM Post #120 of 242
Nope, I am completely OK with you posting the results.  I merely contacted them to verify that the test was performed by them, and by the chemists listed.  Nowhere in the letter does is state that I am asking for the results to be removed.  
 
Once again, you put words into my mouth. 
 
Here is a copy of the email I sent them:
 

 

 
Quote:
Guess what, I've just had a phonecall from the Assay office and Lee has been in contact with them asking if I am allowed to post the results for all to see and is attempting to have these results taking off so that people cannot see them.
It's all well and good for him to post his results when they are positive.



 
 

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