So that is why Vinyl was invented....finally understood the hype.
Nov 4, 2008 at 2:42 AM Post #16 of 62

tongson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Did it ever occur to you that some people prefer vinyl because they believe it actually sounds better? Why would their opinion be any less valid than yours?
rolleyes.gif



And this is because Vinyl adds euphonic distortion.
 
Nov 4, 2008 at 3:12 AM Post #17 of 62

Sovkiller

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Germania are you sure that this copy on CD of the same album was remastered under the same conditions and from the same master tapes? Don't let the hype fool you, as sometimes chances are that you are comparing things that are not equivalent professionally talking...

I grew up listening vinyl and honestly I do not miss a single bit of it, everything (except the quality of sound) is wrong with that media. Real state, handling, cleaning, storage, degradation, limitation on the amount of information (sides last only around 45 minutes)...etc....Even more I realized for the first time in my life, while I heard the CD version of the Atom Heart Mother from Pink Floyd, that in "Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast", the guy was actually frying an egg there!!!!! All my life I wrongly believed that it was the scratch from the LP...OMG!!!!...
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Nov 4, 2008 at 3:20 AM Post #18 of 62

linuxworks

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Quote:

Originally Posted by milkweg /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I grew up with vinyl until I was 29 and I'm glad I don't have to clean records and the needle any more.


amen!

man, that was a HORRIBLE thing to have to go thru. clean the needle, clean the record, destatic everything, worry about capacitance and grounding, even walking on the floor would freak out some tables (not every house has sturdy floors in the Real World). have too much bass? that also feeds back into the tracking ;(

just one whole ugly scene, if you ask me. I'm sooo glad that stuff is long gone for most of us
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flip the side over at 20 minutes?

I'm laughing
wink.gif


Quote:

I can hear the needle tracking on vinyl so IMO cd's sound cleaner and more pristine.


not only the fact that READING YOUR MEDIA, itself, is an act of destruction and causes irreparable damage but that you can HEAR the playback system, itself. the playback system should just be transparent and all 'moving stylus' systems are the farthest things from transparency.

sorry to be the odd guy out (grin) but vinyl was the best we had A LONG TIME AGO. today we have far better ways to get music from pt a to pt b. vibrating diamond on plastic or shellac is not exactly bit-perfect, now, is it?
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Nov 4, 2008 at 3:30 AM Post #19 of 62

wuwhere

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I used to vinyl. I had a VPI 19 MKII, Eminent Technology II Air Bearing arm, Virtuoso Boron MC, tube preamp. I did all the setup myself, i.e., azimuth, overhang, tracking mass, etc... I had all the tools to setup the cartridge properly. Even had a VPI 17 record cleaning machine, the liquid and anti-static zapper. Really enjoyed it. The only CD transport/dac combo that came close was the Linn but it cost like 3 or 4 times.

Someone once said 'To enjoy digital music don't listen to analog or vinyl'.
 
Nov 4, 2008 at 3:48 AM Post #20 of 62

linuxworks

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wuwhere /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Someone once said 'To enjoy digital music don't listen to analog or vinyl'.


pure analog beats digital.

but pure analog != "turntable, tonearm, cartridge and stylus playback"

the whole playback system is about as unfaithful as you can get. physical vibrating media vs non-moving digital bits? come on!

and you cannot get around it, the surface noise IS distracting. and it only gets worse each time you play, so you are penalized for WANTING to play. just like the first post in this thread. there you go - someone who is trying to DECIDE if 'its time' to play some media.

come on, people. one should not have to see if its 'spongeworthy' (LOL!!) or not just to get music playback.

I grew up with LPs, cassettes, reel to reel and even (gawk!) 8track. I went thru a lot of dolby processors to try to reduce noise. DNR systems. DBX systems. single ended, double ended. all that nonsense (by today's standards). not to mention the HUGE amount of compression needed to FIT music inside the limited dyn range of LP grooves.

wow. I'm so glad all that is gone. again, for most of us, it is
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Nov 4, 2008 at 4:39 AM Post #21 of 62

-=Germania=-

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The whole records thing is to listen to some good old tunes.

Modern music on an LP ....no thank you!

However, many of these classic rock and jazz records DO beat out their CD couterparts (I have the CD's) with all the fancy "remastering". The CD's lost the rawness and the realism. I say it was a problem of over processing.

The digital files made from recording a TT (with decrackle software) sound BETTER than the lossless CD rips or the CD's themselves. I have a cheap TT right now too - keep that in mind. (Bought a Numark TT1400 today though).

It is simply another way to explore music, but don't count on me to go much further than this. BTW: using the pre-amp on the Zhaolu and the SSMH as a cheapie phonostage works pretty well and beats out the built in RIAA (switched off currently).
 
Nov 4, 2008 at 5:32 AM Post #22 of 62

linuxworks

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Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Germania=- /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The whole records thing is to listen to some good old tunes.


that's cool.

so get hold of the BEST a/d you can find (hint: pro audio. bypass the high priced audiophile stuff) and capture to digital. do your 'best clean' of the media and stylus, don't walk on the floors at all (grin!) and capture to digital. then enjoy from then on with no 'procedure' like there is with LP playback.

Quote:

However, many of these classic rock and jazz records DO beat out their CD couterparts (I have the CD's) with all the fancy "remastering". The CD's lost the rawness and the realism. I say it was a problem of over processing.


a lot of bad sound happens when people try to 'fix' things in remastering and remixing. plus, well, the *captures* were pretty bad, too, and no amount of post can fix a bad capture.


Quote:

It is simply another way to explore music, but don't count on me to go much further than this. BTW: using the pre-amp on the Zhaolu and the SSMH as a cheapie phonostage works pretty well and beats out the built in RIAA (switched off currently).


explore the a/d route and perhaps rent some pro gear to do the capture. try to master your OWN digitals and then at least you're back to convenience in digital i/o and ease of use.

I grew up dreaming of the day when I could say goodbye to 'the procedure' (tm) of playing records. I cannot see ever going back unless its to do a one-off capture to some form of digital.

it just makes the most sense. to keep degrading things with *destructive playback* (playing a record) its just unfathomable today, to me
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Nov 4, 2008 at 5:52 AM Post #23 of 62

-=Germania=-

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I am actually going to try and setup the new TT myself. ( I do not want a stranger in my bedroom/university apartment)
I got a test LP to use for calibrating.

The only good old CD's I have are all pretty much direct LP rips (Herb Albert and TJ Band CD's).

As far as cleaning the LP's, using some DIY fluid + a Nylon Paintbrush from my artist roomate + drying with a Shamwow works pretty darn good. it just doesn't make sense for me to invest a lot into that sort of thing.

It is about the music, not how "perfect" it is. It just needs to sound real or authentic. Music is an experience, and I am a sucker for vintage.
 
Nov 4, 2008 at 1:22 PM Post #26 of 62

jsaliga

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It's not about the playback system, it's about the music. Anyone who doesn't get that probably needs to broaden their perspective.

The loudness war has all but ruined CD audio for me, and the only genre of music that seems to remain untouched by it is classical music...so far. But for now I still buy classical music on CD (and especially SACD when available). I steer clear of everything else on the CD format. For jazz, rock, etc. it is vinyl first; I will only consider CD if it is music that I absolutely must have in my library.

Another good reason to consider having a vinyl setup is that it opens the door and provides access to music that has never been and may never be released on the CD format. If all you care about is rock music then this is less likely to impact you. However, if you enjoy classical, country, bluegrass, blues, folk, or virtually anything else, then a vinyl setup can make good sense.

Now a few words about quality. Both vinyl and CD are capable of superb sound quality. Vinyl's Achilles heel is physical defects and it can be a very distracting and annoying problem. With new records this could come in the form of bad pressings. I have bought enough defective 200g records from Classic Records to know that I will never buy another one again. When they are good though, they are truly amazing. My 200g vinyl copy of Jascha Heifetz's Sibelius Violin Concerto in D Minor sounds much better to my ears than the RCA Living Stereo SACD, for example.

The problem with vintage vinyl is usually groove wear/damage. People seem to think that a record cleaning machine (RCM) works miracles and will restore worn out records to like-new condition. Getting vinyl records clean is not rocket science, but there are a lot of companies out there trying to convince you of that and are all too happy to take your money. I own a RCM myself, but not because I think it cleans better than I could by hand. It cleans and drys records faster than I can by hand, so I use it for speed and convenience.

I buy a lot of vintage vinyl, most of which was pressed in the 1950s and 1960s. It is mainly classical and jazz. Good records from this period can sound incredible. But we are talking about records that are some 50 to 60 years old, from a time when people had a tendency to not to take great care of their records like the typlical vinylphile does today. So finding undamaged, unworn records from this period that sound great is getting more and more difficult. But it can be done. I try to buy my vintage records in bulk lots whenever possible. I usually can get them at a per-record cost of between 50 to 75 cents. So if I buy 100 LPs and 25 of them are worn out and no good, then it doesn't hurt to throw them away. That still leaves me with 75 great sounding LPs with a per-record cost between 75 cents and $1 each. I have many, many vintage records that would simply amaze you with how great they sound. These records have little to no surface noise and no pops or clicks, and I would stack up their sound quality against any CD.

In summary, the only distortions I see are in this thread. People tend to resort to gross exaggeration and even a little intellectual dishonesty to make their points. It may make for an entertaining read, but it doesn't do a thing to increase our collective knowledge or help others make informed choices.

--Jerome
 
Nov 4, 2008 at 1:45 PM Post #27 of 62

tongson

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We just need to remember that sounding better depends on the listener and is completely subjective.
 
Nov 4, 2008 at 2:13 PM Post #28 of 62

jsaliga

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Perhaps, but that does not invalidate a well-articulated opinion. And even if I happen to disagree with someone on the merits, I can at least respect a person who goes to some lengths to explain themselves instead of tossing around one-liners that doesn't really add anything to the discussion.

--Jerome
 
Nov 6, 2008 at 3:54 PM Post #29 of 62

milkweg

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"It's not about the playback system, it's about the music. Anyone who doesn't get that probably needs to broaden their perspective."

" I steer clear of everything else on the CD format. For jazz, rock, etc. it is vinyl first; I will only consider CD if it is music that I absolutely must have in my library."

Those two statements are a diametric contradiction.
 
Nov 6, 2008 at 5:28 PM Post #30 of 62

jsaliga

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No, they aren't. Frankly, you don't know enough about my listening tastes and experience to make that kind of judgment. Tell me something...how many different analog and digital sources do you have in your setup, and for what purpose?

I'm still waiting for you to actually contribute something of substance to this topic...but I won't hold my breath.

--Jerome
 

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