[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd To me it has a few benefits: 1: I enjoy smoking 2: I love the taste 3: I love the aroma 4: It keeps me slim 5: It's a great social "ice breaker" 6: I trust fellow smokers more than I do non smokers 7: It keeps me occupied 8: I think better when I'm smoking I could go on and on, I ENJOY smoking.. yes, "enjoy" it.

But the benefits of smoking are only for the smoker. And the third party externalities are all negative (except to other smokers perhaps). That's what completely distinguishes smoking from other activities that have third party externalities, but that also have social or economic benefits that also benefit others, driving automobiles, farming, manufacturing, etc. There is a legitimate point to be made regarding whether smokers' rights are being fairly balanced against non-smokers' rights (and I think reasonable minds can differ on this), but to say smoking should be permitted in public places because it has "benefits" is a pretty weak argument, in my opinion.

 

[markl]

Quote:

Actually, bars/pubs *are not* public places, they are private establishments. So why should the government be regulating what goes on there, rather than the owners?

I can't walk into a bar and sock you in the jaw. "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought this was a *punching* bar!"

You aren't free to do anything you want in a bar.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwisatz I'm fine with people having their vices - so long as they don't affect others. Smoking in public places affects others quite obviously, thus I don't agree with it.

What about the fact that bars/restaurants are private establishments? The owners of these places have no choice if they want to allow people to smoke, they can't if the government says they can't.

It's a very small step from this into the home, IMO. Since children often live there, why shouldn't the government regulate what goes on in private homes? What's to stop it?

 

[SptsNaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.karmalicious If you said yes, there's no way in hell that's "freedom." Sure, these are free countries, but that doesn't mean we're free to do whatever we want, such as hurting/killing people. What do you think second-hand smoke does?

honestly, I can assure you second hand smoke has never really hurt or killed anyone. Some people are fine after 30 years of smoking, so I really don't think that you'll notice any health detriments of second hand smoke during your life span

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl If you want to me come out in support of pollution and the rape and pillaging of our environment, you'll be waiting a long time. As your mommy always taught you, "two wrongs don't make a right." It wouldn't matter if I drove or rode the bus, my exposure to pollution is the same. People have to get around, so vehicles are here to stay (as you well know). No one has to smoke though. And I've never seen anyone in a hospital dieing from autombile pollution either. If you are comparing breathing the air outside with sucking a cloud of smoke into your lungs, then I think you miss the point entirely. There's no connection between the two. I also pass wind (methane), and that's contributing to global warming, but there's not much I can do about that either!

I blow smoke in your general direction! I do not recognise your "smoke free zone" I refuse to back down and will blow my smoke all over your house. I will smoke on the beaches, I will smoke on the pavements, I will smoke in the house, I will smoke in the trains, I will smoke in every office in every city.... you will not defeat me!

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl I can't walk into a bar and sock you in the jaw. "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought this was a *punching* bar!" You aren't free to do anything you want in a bar.

And the owner of a private establishment, like a restaurant or pub, can't discriminate on the basis of race, for example, either. There are lots of things the government does not allow owners of "private establishments" to do.

 

[shplorgh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SptsNaz honestly, I can assure you second hand smoke has never really hurt or killed anyone. Some people are fine after 30 years of smoking, so I really don't think that you'll notice any health detriments of second hand smoke during your life span

That's not true at all.

Quote:

Numerous studies have shown that passive smoking can be harmful to human health,

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd I blow smoke in your general direction! I do not recognise your "smoke free zone" I refuse to back down and will blow my smoke all over your house. I will smoke on the beaches, I will smoke on the pavements, I will smoke in the house, I will smoke in the trains, I will smoke in every office in every city.... you will not defeat me!

*tries to put PinkFloyd out, but he continues to smolder*

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SptsNaz honestly, I can assure you second hand smoke has never really hurt or killed anyone. Some people are fine after 30 years of smoking, so I really don't think that you'll notice any health detriments of second hand smoke during your life span

In my understanding, the available medical and scientific evidence establishes the contrary. I'd be interested in hearing the basis for your statement.

 

[Kwisatz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch What about the fact that bars/restaurants are private establishments? The owners of these places have no choice if they want to allow people to smoke, they can't if the government says they can't. It's a very small step from this into the home, IMO. Since children often live there, why shouldn't the government regulate what goes on in private homes? What's to stop it?

Private establishments that serve the public. They're a business that survives on the public going to it, and is liable for anything that happens to its customers. They are responsible to make sure they don't serve minors, etc. They are not a house... far from it.

 

[shplorgh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd I blow smoke in your general direction! I do not recognise your "smoke free zone" I refuse to back down and will blow my smoke all over your house. I will smoke on the beaches, I will smoke on the pavements, I will smoke in the house, I will smoke in the trains, I will smoke in every office in every city.... you will not defeat me!

I don't have to, cancer or emphysema will take care of you for me.

 

[Tech2]

A few thoughts:

In Michigan we have one of the highest tax rates in the nation on cigarettes. A pack now costs over $5 (more than $2 goes directly to the state). As a smoker (and a minority vs non-smokers), I realize that we are easy targets for taxes. It irritates me that we are singled out. You can argue all you want about other unhealthy lifestyles not being the same, and I'll respectfully disagree.

I see a LOT of unhealthy non-smokers eating pizza and McDonalds for lunch. Most are overweight and have guts hanging over their belts. One of the guys I work with is 360 pounds and is CONSTANTLY at the doctor's office for weight related problems like circulation, leg/knee pain, heart issues, shortness of breath, etc. It's one thing to eat for sustinance, but quite another to eat to excesss. So to me, it is very much the same as smoking. If you're going to penalize someone for smoking, through increased taxes or denial of health care, be fair about it.

Then there's alcohol. I grew up with an alcoholic parent who died at the age of 61 due to the effects of drinking. I read about alcohol related deaths in vehicular accidents all the time. So again, let's be fair and tax/punish everyone for their "sins", not just smokers.

I understand that the issue is second hand smoke, and I have no problem with people that are offended by it, but if you're going to have non-smoking establishments you should allow smoking establishments as well. If a non-smoker goes into one - too bad.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hungrych I don't have to, cancer or emphysema will take care of you for me.

That's not even funny, to joke that someone will die of cancer or emphysema is pretty out of order.

 

[max-9]

I love to smoke , I love everything about it. Its more than a habit , its part of my personality.
If you have never had a cigarette you have no idea what youre missing.
Despite the "facts" look at how long smokers actually live. George Burns (never seen without a cigar ) died at 100 years old...and thats too long.

 

[SptsNaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hungrych That's not true at all.

Well, I didn't exactly mean it in the sense that no amount of second hand smoke will ever harm you. I meant it in the sense that it probably won't affect you if you're exposed to it ever so often, meaning you don't have to deal with it all day (which is the case if you live with a smoker). In that case that you do live with one, you really don't have much of a choice, cause not everyone is going to excuse themselves 20 times a day for you