[lan]

Fast headphones need higher resolution everything in chain above otherwise it's a disaster for me. This includes electrostatics, SA5000, and Etymotics. The added resolution will enhance timing greatly and will allow the system to do any speed.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu Unfortunately don't have one of those around here at work. Are you suggesting that something like damping could be reducing the decay time beyond that in the recorded source?

I really don't know.

I know two things, though. First, that slew rate can be measured by an oscilloscope, and second the frequency response has a psychoacoutstic effect on our perception of speed.

 

[Zephyron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek Honestly, I think that people who feel certain headphones are too fast either have a preference for slow decay, or just don't know how real instruments actually sound.

Hmm, I don't know how to put it, but I don't think this is the right way of putting down people who have a disagreement with you on phones ya know

 

[PiccoloNamek]

I absolutely did not mean it as an insult or a put down. It is simply an observation that I have made.

 

[SonicDawg]

The Koss A250 are also "unnaturally fast" in my opinion; the overall effect seems to make music sound "thin". On the other hand, my K340 seems thick-bodied and sometimes too cavernous sounding to me.

 

[setmenu]

I feel the impression of fast or slow has more to do with the peaks and
troughs of a given headphones frequency response, than anything related to
the drivers ability to 'keep up'.

Over emphasis in certain areas will mask other frequencies and give the
impression of fast or slow, due to the more subtle balancing cues that are
being swamped.

As Carl suggests, play with an equalizer, [with a suitable number of bands] it
can be very illuminating.




.

 

[facelvega]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek It is impossible to make the decay shorter than it is in the recording itself. The transducer can't stop vibrating before the signal representing the instrument has stopped. On the other hand, a headphone with a very slow decay will continue to vibrate even after the signal has stopped.

But then again, it's not as it generations of microphone and recording technology haven't taken into account the fact that speakers of all kinds have a delayed decay, and that therefore the recording has to be mastered to accomodate this difference. So if the recording has to some tiny degree clipped off the decays, then the decay of the speakers would make up for this. Within this possibility there is room for a too-fast response.

 

[Zanth]

Listen to a live performance, it is the absolute reference when talking audio reproduction. Go to any live ACOUSTIC session, either a jazz ensemble, some chamber or large orchestral works. Do any of these performances sound like Ety's? Not a single one. I own Ety's, I enjoy them, and I like the fast sound, but it is fast, abnormally fast. This has been a short coming. Because there is a lack of bass (as setmenu ndicated in peaks and troughs) the sound has little to no decay rate. So sure, the driver might be able to respond well, but if the cut off in the bass is such that the bass notes die out too quickly, then you have a sound that is presented as abnormally fast. This was my point. Reread my statement in full, not just one sentence for quoting purposes.

If you kill a frequency (particularly in the highs and lows.), you change the apparent timing of the music

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Sorry, but that doesn't hold true with my experiences with live performances of all kinds and my comparisons of recorded performances using my fast headphones.

And besides, even if it did, a headphone's job is to reproduce a recording, not a live situation, at least, that is my listening philosophy. And for that, a fast headphone is significantly more accurate. What about electronic music? If the headphone's decay is optimized for recreating a "live" sound, then the decay will be too slow for other types of music that don't need that added effect.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek Sorry, but that doesn't hold true with my experiences with live performances of all kinds. And besides, even if it did, a headphone's job is to reproduce a recording, not a live situation, at least, that is my listening philosophy.

Your experience is your own, that is fine. But as a musician for 15 years, and an avid patron of the local orchestra I have to say that my experience of what music sounds like, naturally decaying through the air, outdoors or in a well designed hall, is not one that offers bass drop out. Electrically amped instruments will have different presentations as this is synthetic at least on some level, not to mention full synthetic instruments like an electric guitar or a synthesizer. However, in most of these instances, such performances emphasize bass even more. A recording shouldn't have massive dips in the frequencies and for most recordings this is true.

Now, you indicate that the above doesn't hold true with your experience which is too bad, since you are obviously missing out on some well presented music, but aside from this, you then indicate in the second paragraph that perhaps what I indicated could be the case yet provided the recording is faulty, a phone should simply reproduce what is on the recording. Of course it should. Trying to achieve live sound is never going to happen, though as a reference, ideally this is a goal. Reproducing a recording accurately doesn't mean that the phone should overemphasize any shortcomings. By that I mean, if recording A is rolled off in the bass, using something like an Etymotic would make this EVEN WORSE! Essentially destroying any hope of true bass and natural decay. If the recording does do the bass justice, the Ety's will still sound lean. I've owned them for 4 years, I know them very well, and they are lean phones. They have wonder tight bass but it is lean and this is a major reason why triple driver and dual driver IEM's do so well, because the bass driver is able to provide realistic bass to the effect that there is a more natural decay and the body of the music is retained.

facelvega pegged it. Recording engineers will take into account differences between the live sound and the reproduced sound (just think about why most recordings these days sound hot, it is because the labels think folks want their music loud and in one's face, killing all dynamics - i.e. music is compressed).

Electronic music won't sound natural on ety's either because the bass is rolled off (or better put, the bass is deemphasized, Ety's go very deep but they don't have an abundance of bass). Electronic music emphasizes bass. I would wager a lot that few would indicate ety's as the clear winner when listening to electronica or hip hop as a realistic expression of what it sounds like in a club. No, they would aim for something that was able to present the bass hard, full and realistically.

You like Ety's. So do I. I'm not attacking them, but saying they have natural bass...it is just not so. This is not subjective, it is objective. Point me to music that sounds like that when created, save for something one whipped up on a computer to mimic it exactly.

 

[luidge]

Can speed be representative of the EQ Lob and Highs, i mean if an headphones can't get too low or high then the note will die before it supposed to die. Something like the roll off? I didn't realy look at this speed stuff before, just wondering.

 

[luidge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by setmenu I feel the impression of fast or slow has more to do with the peaks and troughs of a given headphones frequency response, than anything related to the drivers ability to 'keep up'. Over emphasis in certain areas will mask other frequencies and give the impression of fast or slow, due to the more subtle balancing cues that are being swamped. As Carl suggests, play with an equalizer, [with a suitable number of bands] it can be very illuminating. .

Oops just saw your post, i see it this way too.
X2

 

[PiccoloNamek]

I didn't even mention the words "ER4" or "Etymotic" in my last post. I was talking about fast headphones in general. The ER4 just happens to be the only very fast headphone in my posession. If I owned others, I would be talking about them as well. In fact, I probably wouldn't even mention the ER4... you know I'm trying to quit. It's just that this patch isn't helping.

But since you went there, I don't think they are bass lean at all. The bass response is nearly ruler-flat, perfect for my needs and for reproducing 99% of the music that I listen to. There's pretty much only one song that I ever want more bass on, and that's Analog P*ssy's "Go Wacko". (Edit: Stupid censor.) Also, when I said "Electronic music" what I should have said was any music that had been created on a computer. I didn't necessarily mean techno or house music, although I do listen to house and techno on them.

Check this out: http://www.sendspace.com/file/0spash

The part at around 0:40 where the double bass comes in is wonderful. I can feel the pressure in my ear canal and against my eardrum. It is wonderful and full bodied without being overbearing or excessively boosted in loudness over the rest of the audio spectrum.

The piano in this song is exceptionally bass heavy and the ER4s reproduce it perfectly: http://www.sendspace.com/file/7ud885

I simply can't listen to this song on my SR-60s, it's too much.

This jazz session from Cowboy Bebop sounds pretty damn realistic on them as well: http://www.sendspace.com/file/aixmmv

I actually had an eargasm listening to it.

On well-mixed music, the ER4s always sound exceptional. It is certainly physically capable of producing substantial bass output, if the recording allows. Some music is intended for bass-heavy setups and is mixed bass-light to compensate. The ER4 will reproduce these exactly as they are: bass-light. I suppose for those particular types of music, it is not a good choice. Luckily for me, I don't listen to them often.

 

[evilking]

So is the SA5000 a circumaural er4?

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilking So is the SA5000 a circumaural er4?

Some would say yes, as are the Qualias. Many dislike these Sony's because of this thin sound which helps emphasize the quickness but kills natural body and decay.