Skeptico Saloon: An Objectivist Joint
May 9, 2015 at 7:51 PM Post #1,591 of 1,671
speak for youself


Er no. Firstly the product description mentions the sonic design as such. Secondly as an owner of the K10 and having talked to the creator of the IEMs, aka Dr Moulton, there is supposed to be more treble presence in the K10. The N6 is more similar to the Heir 8A, which I also own.
 
May 9, 2015 at 8:07 PM Post #1,592 of 1,671
Well go ask Moulton if more drivers is a gimmick then. Even Moulton doesn't hang out here and there were multiple threads he could have offered insights on the tech.
 
May 9, 2015 at 9:20 PM Post #1,593 of 1,671
Lots!
biggrin.gif




se


LOL hard to fit in IEM. A modern touring sound system dwarfs the Dead's wall of sound driver counts with around 1200 in the main PA and around a half million watts. If anyone figured out the amount of processing power in system the government might ban exporting them to some countries. 
 
May 9, 2015 at 9:29 PM Post #1,594 of 1,671
Well go ask Moulton if more drivers is a gimmick then. Even Moulton doesn't hang out here and there were multiple threads he could have offered insights on the tech.

So, can we conclude that multiple driver IEM's aren't a gimmick if they are designed properly (ie. minimise crossover). That way, everyone's happy.
 
May 9, 2015 at 10:23 PM Post #1,595 of 1,671
LOL hard to fit in IEM. A modern touring sound system dwarfs the Dead's wall of sound driver counts with around 1200 in the main PA and around a half million watts. If anyone figured out the amount of processing power in system the government might ban exporting them to some countries. 


Hehehe. I know. Just that in modern systems, the drivers aren't so dazzlingly on display as in this old Wall of Sound system. They're usually hidden away inside folded horns.

And as for fitting inside IEMs, who cares about IEMs? Give me surface area, baby!

Peace. :D

se
 
May 9, 2015 at 11:27 PM Post #1,596 of 1,671
Is that the blind testing of people sonic preferences? Wasn't the result that most people prefer most accurate sounding headphones. By accurate I mean real to life?


Yes. But when measuring headphones on a dummy head, you don't get a flat frequency response. So Sean has come up with a "reference curve" for headphone frequency response that results in a "more accurate" perceived sound.

se


My thoughts on that (quoted from my blog):

The problem, as far as I can see, is that we’re still not very good at simulating the mechanics and acoustics of a real human ear using dummy ears or dummy heads. And probing a real ear is also a non-starter as the acoustics of any probe location other than the eardrum itself is different. Even if someone were to sacrifice oneself for science and audio and replace one’s eardrums with microphones, said microphones wouldn’t match the acoustic impedance response of one’s eardrums. Massaging flawed measurement data with compensation curves will not yield accurate results either, as the required compensation curve would change with each model of earphones, its acoustic coupling with the artificial ear being different from that with the real thing, this difference being unique for each model of earphones.

Feel free to correct me on any of the above–I’m not used to “bashing science” myself.
 
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May 10, 2015 at 2:07 AM Post #1,597 of 1,671
My thoughts on that (quoted from my blog):

The problem, as far as I can see, is that we’re still not very good at simulating the mechanics and acoustics of a real human ear using dummy ears or dummy heads. And probing a real ear is also a non-starter as the acoustics of any probe location other than the eardrum itself is different. Even if someone were to sacrifice oneself for science and audio and replace one’s eardrums with microphones, said microphones wouldn’t match the acoustic impedance response of one’s eardrums. Massaging flawed measurement data with compensation curves will not yield accurate results either, as the required compensation curve would change with each model of earphones, its acoustic coupling with the artificial ear being different from that with the real thing, this difference being unique for each model of earphones.

Feel free to correct me on any of the above–I’m not used to “bashing science” myself.


Some of this I can agree with. For example, I never quite understood why measurements should be made on a dummy head with the diaphragm essentially where the eardrum would be. At least not for headphones where people's pinnae and ear canals are all different. Seems to me you'd want the diaphragm just outside the pinnae to capture the sound field before it reached the pinnae. I mean, you don't measure loudspeaker performance using a dummy head with the microphone diaphragm where the eardrum would be. Sure, with a headphone you need to replicate the relatively small cavity that the drivers are operating into, but not everything else.

se
 
May 10, 2015 at 4:54 AM Post #1,598 of 1,671
Ah, I shall revisit this thread again. : )

What exactly do these numbers represent?
http://www.dynamicrange.de/sites/default/files/Measuring%20DR%20ENv3.pdf
http://dr.loudness-war.info/


I usually define absolute dynamic range as the difference between the softest and the loudest points. That is quite literally how dynamic the music is and your amplifier would need to be able to produce sound from the softest part to the loudest part without clipping and with the proper slew rate if the music demands it.

For calculation purposes though, that's not a practical metric since software usually can't identify/tell you the quietest points within a given music piece unless there's complete silence like in some synthesised music. Using a track's RMS and peak values (thus crest factor) are much more indicative of the dynamic range for this purpose. The RMS value represents the continuous/sustained load on an amplifier, whereas the peak represents a sudden power surge requirement from the amp. This makes complete sense to me for determining a music track's dynamic range, how much change is there in the music from the average level? The crest factor is also commonly used for speaker amps to determine how powerful of an amp you'll need. A VU meter is also indicative of the RMS values and average volume level of a given music piece for loudness monitoring.

The DR utility does something completely different from anything above and I don't see how it can be indicative of a given music track. The largest 20% of the RMS values doesn't tell you anything useful for either the music track nor the requirements for an amplifier; it isn't indicative of how loud the music track is from the peak values for a dynamic range calculation and it makes the track seem artificially louder than it really is, as evident by the much lower RMS values determined by Audacity, Musicscope, and Foobar's ReplayGain values.

From the spec sheet posted above, 132300 samples are analysed in a 3-second block for a 44.1 kHz sampled file for each channel. For those 132300 analysed points, one RMS and one peak value are determined. The RMS calculation isn't really an RMS value to begin with since the radicand is multiplied by 2 when RMS calculations don't have that factor, no? So it's erroneous right there and is already inaccurate. If you have a 3-minute song, that means 60 RMS and 60 peak values are generated (one for each 3-second interval) for each channel, which means a blknum of 60. The RMS-sum is just the total RMS value (single number) for the whole channel, which is based on the inaccuratly calculated RMS values. To get the top 20% values, they divided the total RMS's radicand by 0.2 * blknum (12 in this case).

Say you have these made-up 60 values from the RMS calculation:
Code:
Ten values of -6.7
Ten values of -7.3
Ten values of -6.4
Ten values of -5.8
Ten values of -6.9
Five values of -5.3
Five values of -5.0
Sum of Squares = 2469.35
Sum of Squares / 12 = 205.78
Top 20% Total RMS value = sqrt(Sum of Squares / 12) = 14.35

With our simple numbers, we can double-check this.
Reordering the values from smallest to largest:
Code:
Ten values of -7.3
Ten values of -6.9
Ten values of -6.7
Ten values of -6.4
Ten values of -5.8
Five values of -5.3
Five values of -5.0
Obviously the top 12 values representing the top 20% RMS values are the five -5.0 values, the five -5.3 values, and two of the -5.8 values.

Sum of Squares for top 20% = 332.73
Top 20% Total RMS value = sqrt(Sum of Squares for top 20%) = 18.24

18.24 ≠ 14.35

So even the "top 20%" RMS values they calculate are inaccurate from the samples they take.


The spec sheet says:
Using the RMS-sum in (4) results in the overall RMS of the upper 20% of the input material, eliminating the contribution of small Peaks. This method also ensures that the resulting DR value is virtually independent from the block size used (3s in this example) as long as this is small compared to the overall input material length.

Limiting the DR-measurement to the upper 20% of the blocks with maximum RMS is a compromise that allows to somewhat compare a wide variety of different material in a quantitative way. Also in highly dynamic Material only the loudest parts, which usually best reflect the processing of the material (compression etc.), contribute to the DR measurement.


What would be an example of when small peaks would greatly alter the calculated RMS value in such a way that the true RMS value isn't good enough or indicative of the whole track? I guess I just don't understand why the DR utility uses the highest 20% of calculated values. Literally no other sources I've seen and read use this convention and instead use the crest factor for dynamic range determination, which makes sense to use unless you can provide a concrete example of when the DR utility would be a better convention to use.




To me, the crest factor (peak minus RMS value in dB) is a far better indication of the dynamic range than what the DR utility outputs.
For example, here's a song from a video game soundtrack that I really like:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZl8WKO0FV8[/video]


Here's its corresponding decibel waveform in Audacity:


The light-blue area represents the loudness of the song, or the sustained/RMS values. If you just eyeball the approximate average level of this area, the left channel looks to be at around -13 or -14 dBFS and the right at around -14 or -14.5 dBFS. Subjectively, I hear that the right channel seems to have less stuff going on, so it makes sense that the right channel has a slightly quieter average volume level/average RMS value.

You can use Audacity to objectively determine the average of the RMS values by doing a "Contrast" analysis.
http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/contrast.html


Indeed the right channel is quieter based on the average RMS value it calculated (-13.7 dBFS vs -14.3 dBFS).


For peak values, you can use Audacity's "Amplify" (without clipping) effect. This will bring the song to as loud as it can get, 0 dBFS, without clipping. Both the left and right channels can only be increased by 0.1 dB for this particular song, so that means the peak values for each channel are -0.1 dBFS.


From the average RMS values and the peak values, you can determine the crest factor for each channel.
Left: -0.1 dBFS peak - -13.7 dBFS RMS = 13.6 dB
Right: -0.1 dBFS peak - -14.3 dBFS RMS = 14.2 dB

We can average the two crest factors to get the crest factor for the whole song: 13.9 dB

So this represents how much variation the song has between its average loudness level and its peak levels.


What does the DR utility output?
Code:
 Left Right

Peak Value: -0.10 dB --- -0.10 dB 
Avg RMS: -10.77 dB --- -11.38 dB 
DR channel: 8.95 dB --- 9.87 dB 
Official DR Value: DR9

That doesn't seem right to me....
 
May 10, 2015 at 5:04 AM Post #1,599 of 1,671
Well go ask Moulton if more drivers is a gimmick then. Even Moulton doesn't hang out here and there were multiple threads he could have offered insights on the tech.


He is an industry insider and will obviously have limitations on what he can disclose.

Gimmicks aside, I merely wanted to understand how driver counts impact performance from an objective standpoint which you clearly fail to comprehend.
 
May 10, 2015 at 6:22 AM Post #1,600 of 1,671
I only needed a fair amount of multi-driver IEMs to sample and conclude multiple drivers can be used to enhance performance. For someone who has 
 
  I own and have tried countless multiple driver set-ups. 
 

 
A technical explanation of driver count affecting performance would be useless if you yourself can't form a conclusion whether or not it can impact performance. You have had a lot of evidence, a statistical advantage compared to my experience in IEMs, at hand to answer your own question but it seems you can't comprehend such evidence. It would be pointless for an expert on the subject to explain further details to you.
 
 
He is an industry insider and will obviously have limitations on what he can disclose.

Gimmicks aside, I merely wanted to understand how driver counts impact performance from an objective standpoint which you clearly fail to comprehend.
 


As I have said before this is the worst place to ask such question. People that know how to implement multi-BA IEM wont bother with this forum. Go ahead and wait for one though, I merely offered an answer from my experience and you called it unhelpful since it was anecdotal. Then you post this bit
Er no. Firstly the product description mentions the sonic design as such. Secondly as an owner of the K10 and having talked to the creator of the IEMs, aka Dr Moulton, there is supposed to be more treble presence in the K10. The N6 is more similar to the Heir 8A, which I also own.
 
If Moulton himself didn't give you any objective evidence to support that statement, then you are a hypocrite for telling me anecdotal claims are unhelpful. If you don't trust 10K cable performance claims from manufacturer due to lack objective evidence, then you shouldn't trust Moulton's either.
 
Of course, I would trust his claims myself but for different, and less hypocritical, reasons than yours.


 
 
  So, can we conclude that multiple driver IEM's aren't a gimmick if they are designed properly (ie. minimise crossover). That way, everyone's happy.

You may but **** that dude.
 
May 10, 2015 at 6:38 AM Post #1,601 of 1,671
 
You may but **** that dude.

He's asking a genuine question, and all you're doing is saying 'yeah it's better coz I said so.' He's asking if so, why: if you don't know why, don't go all medieval on anyone who offers an alternative opinion. An anecdote isn't much of use, frankly when he's trying to understand why:
 
That's why I am asking for somebody with expertise in the scientific know how of how these drivers work..

 
May 10, 2015 at 6:52 AM Post #1,602 of 1,671
Originally Posted by miceblue /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
From the spec sheet posted above, 132300 samples are analysed in a 3-second block for a 44.1 kHz sampled file for each channel. For those 132300 analysed points, one RMS and one peak value are determined. The RMS calculation isn't really an RMS value to begin with since the radicand is multiplied by 2 when RMS calculations don't have that factor, no? So it's erroneous right there and is already inaccurate.

 
The multiplication by 2 is there so that the RMS level calculated for a 0 dBFS sine (rather than square) wave will be 0 dBFS. Without that, it would be -3.01 dBFS.
 
In other words, if the entire input is a simple sine wave at a constant level, the calculated dynamic range will be 0 dB. But it will be 0 dB even if only 20% or more of the input is a constant sine wave, and the rest of it is silence. Therefore, it is a pessimistic algorithm, because it will rate the track as having poor dynamic range if any substantial part of it looks like being heavily compressed. It also ignores a high peak in a single block due to using only the second highest peak value. If you take 5 minutes of high quality classical music, and paste a couple minutes of compressed metal or pop at the end of it, then the reported dynamic range will be based mostly on the latter, where the 20% highest RMS values are likely to be found.
 
Obviously the top 12 values representing the top 20% RMS values are the five -5.0 values, the five -5.3 values, and two of the -5.8 values.

Sum of Squares for top 20% = 332.73
Top 20% Total RMS value = sqrt(Sum of Squares for top 20%) = 18.24

18.24 ≠ 14.35

So even the "top 20%" RMS values they calculate are inaccurate from the samples they take.

 
The RMS sum is not based on the dB values, but rather on the power, which is the correct way to combine the RMS level for multiple blocks. That is, the correct overall RMS for the 12 blocks is:
 
10 * log10((10^(-5 / 10) * 5 + 10^(-5.3 / 10) * 5 + 10^(-5.8 / 10) * 2) / 12) = -5.25 dB
 
May 10, 2015 at 6:58 AM Post #1,603 of 1,671

A technical explanation of driver count affecting performance would be useless if you yourself can't form a conclusion whether or not it can impact performance. You have had a lot of evidence, a statistical advantage compared to my experience in IEMs, at hand to answer your own question but it seems you can't comprehend such evidence. It would be pointless for an expert on the subject to explain further details to you.
 
 
If you don't have the scientific know how to explain, then don't stop me from asking. If anything, sound science is the best place for objective knowledge, and I know that there are several individuals here who are more than qualified to offer explanations or suggest some form of debate. Otherwise, you could maybe suggest, other sources that I could refer to so that I can educate myself about the workings of balanced armature IEMs. 
Yet again, you fail to comprehend the sheer statistical insignificance of relying on my auditory senses to come to an understanding of multi driver IEMs, when it is riddled with biases.  I will repeat again, I wanted a SCIENTIFIC explanation. 
Who are you to decide that it would be pointless for me to ask an expert? I have an engineering degree from MIT, and I believe I would be more than qualified to understand the material if somebody explained it to me.



 
 
If Moulton himself didn't give you any objective evidence to support that statement, then you are a hypocrite for telling me anecdotal claims are unhelpful. If you don't trust 10K cable performance claims from manufacturer due to lack objective evidence, then you shouldn't trust Moulton's either.
 
Dr Moulton has previously told me that he uses measuring equipment to check his IEMs after tuning them by ear. Stop resorting to ad hominem statements and calling people hypocrites. It's unseemly.
 
 
 

 
May 10, 2015 at 8:38 AM Post #1,604 of 1,671
He's asking a genuine question, and all you're doing is saying 'yeah it's better coz I said so.' He's asking if so, why: if you don't know why, don't go all medieval on anyone who offers an alternative opinion. An anecdotal isn't much of use, frankly when he's trying to understand why:


You can't get medieval on an internet forum...it isn't like I am trying to convince him or that my answer is a end all, be all. I just offered a genuine answer as I am skeptical that multi-drivers can't offer a better performance than a single dynamic driver.
 
May 10, 2015 at 9:12 AM Post #1,605 of 1,671
You can't get medieval on an internet forum...it isn't like I am trying to convince him or that my answer is a end all, be all. I just offered a genuine answer as I am skeptical that multi-drivers can't offer a better performance than a single dynamic driver.


Nobody said that multi drivers don't offer a better performance. I queried whether it was a gimmick and if not how it could be superior in an objective sense. From an engineer's perspective. Yet you kept on insisting it was superior by ear which is essentially completely irrelevant to what I was querying about. Then you proceeded to brand me a hypocrite, and insinuated incompetence, as I should know better from my hearing experiences and shouldn't bother asking.
 

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