Skeptico Saloon: An Objectivist Joint

[lamode]

Have you skeptical headfiers ever heard a dac or amp that measured well and was appropriately powered for your headphone but didn't sound good?

 
This really depends on what the measurements are exactly. Power, noise, FR, distortion, rise/decay?
Do you know the amp's power into YOUR load, or is it a very different load?
Are the amp power specs true RMS or some marketing gimmick like PMPO?
Is the distortion calculated with just one frequency and at one output level, or across the whole audible spectrum?
etc
 
You get the idea. Some equipment can have very limited and selective specs designed to hide the flaws.
 
Then there is the issue of equipment which just does not work well with other equipment due to impedance matching, etc, even if they measure well individually.

 

[StanD]

   
This really depends on what the measurements are exactly. Power, noise, FR, distortion, rise/decay?
Do you know the amp's power into YOUR load, or is it a very different load?
Are the amp power specs true RMS or some marketing gimmick like PMPO?
Is the distortion calculated with just one frequency and at one output level, or across the whole audible spectrum?
etc
 
You get the idea. Some equipment can have very limited and selective specs designed to hide the flaws.
 
Then there is the issue of equipment which just does not work well with other equipment due to impedance matching, etc, even if they measure well individually.

That fakery can be found when buying very inexpensive stuff on fleaBay. Most but not all reputable Mfrs. don't get into much of that game. Schiit is value priced and conservatively spec'd. Heck it's always Caveat Emptor.

 

[bigshot]

I have to say, I am very disappointed with this forum lately. I have to plow through tons of BS to get to the interesting stuff. That's not because of a single dolt. It's because too many people engage the dolts and pump them up. Now there's blood in the water and jerks that trolled us before are coming back to do it again. These guys wouldn't survive if people just brushed them off. They feed off the attention you people are giving them, and when one of them gets everyone talking, they all jump in.
 
I'm going to start unsubscribing threads that go off the rails. It may end up that there are very few threads for me to pay attention to any more unless the Sound Science regulars get their act together and stop letting themselves be used as tools by needy narcissists.

 

[bigshot]

Blocked: Stereocilia, Analogsurviver, Julian67
 
am I missing anyone?

 

[dprimary]

Have you skeptical headfiers ever heard a dac or amp that measured well and was appropriately powered for your headphone but didn't sound good? Can an amp sound bad that measures good? Is there ever a reason besides power requirements to get an external amp?

And do you think that everything that measures well sounds the same? Does the magni 1 and 2; e12diy w/ diff opamp/buffer combos; cirrus and wolfson dacs, all as examples sound the same, when compared to each other? Is there such a thing as a warm-sounding dac or amp if there is the only measurement differences are beyond the threshold of human hearing?

I've been appreciating all the feedback/interaction. I'm far more skeptical of the advertising machine than I am of you all

I'm in no way confrontational... Just hear to learn.

Most published specs are fairly meaningless. On a DAC if the frequency response varies beyond a fraction of dB it must be the worst DAC ever made. 
 
I would like to see an output across impedance chart on any amp. It is about impossible to predict what and amp can output anymore. At the very least there should be a level at 4 impedances so you get some idea of the trend.
 
Do they all sound the same? I have to say no, but they are within 99.9% of each other. I notice when doing blind testing of something like encoding if I change the DAC during the test the artifact I notice one DAC may not be there on the other. Which one is right? who knows, I don't really care. Often those artifacts really did happen in the room during the recording. I have heard plenty of acoustical distortions in life. 
 
Does the acoustic guitar really create a beat frequency against a soft decay of a cymbal? Unless you caught it during the recording and went in and listened in the room you have no way of knowing. Sometime it really is there and you have move the microphone , the player, or change the playing.

 

[StanD]

  Blocked: Stereocilia, Analogsurviver, Julian67
 
am I missing anyone?

Looks like a good start.

 

[castleofargh]

  Most published specs are fairly meaningless. On a DAC if the frequency response varies beyond a fraction of dB it must be the worst DAC ever made. 
 
I would like to see an output across impedance chart on any amp. It is about impossible to predict what and amp can output anymore. At the very least there should be a level at 4 impedances so you get some idea of the trend.
 
Do they all sound the same? I have to say no, but they are within 99.9% of each other. I notice when doing blind testing of something like encoding if I change the DAC during the test the artifact I notice one DAC may not be there on the other. Which one is right? who knows, I don't really care. Often those artifacts really did happen in the room during the recording. I have heard plenty of acoustical distortions in life. 
 
Does the acoustic guitar really create a beat frequency against a soft decay of a cymbal? Unless you caught it during the recording and went in and listened in the room you have no way of knowing. Sometime it really is there and you have move the microphone , the player, or change the playing.

that!
I'm the spec beggar of headfi, I always look like I'm asking for something excessive each time I want to get the output into a few different loads. if they don't want to give those specs, then tell headphone manufacturers to stop making headphones with different impedances! that would solve my problem, just like I don't care for the impedance output of a DAC, because it will always be plugged into a several Kohm of the amp. we don't have to be afraid of a 8ohm amp input so those numbers are not important.
but with headphones going from almost 4ohm on the SE846 iem, to 600 ohm on many fullsize headphones, any device that will be plugged into a headphone should be required to give at least those numbers, and then some more.
just like a CIEM manufacturer should provide FR and impedance response of their products. it's not trade secret, it's half of the thing we're paying for.
 
and that's not even talking about how badly the provided specs are expressed or how much trust we can put into them. in 2015, I would expect a centralized measurement center responsible to give legitimate specs for all amps DACs, DAPs, headphones...
if the industry was even remotely concerned by quality, that's obviously how things would be.
 
the level of obscurantism in audio is appalling. and sadly the reason for it is clear. most manufacturers would lose their customers if something like this existed, because they don't actually deliver quality, only good marketing.

 

[uchihaitachi]

Are BA IEMs with higher and higher number of drivers a mere marketing gimmick?
 
If IEM manufacturers create from the same driver company (e.g. Knowles), can you hypothetically recreate all 'sound signatures' with only a couple of drivers?

 

[castleofargh]

  Are BA IEMs with higher and higher number of drivers a mere marketing gimmick?
 
If IEM manufacturers create from the same driver company (e.g. Knowles), can you hypothetically recreate all 'sound signatures' with only a couple of drivers?

IMO they're mostly convenient. they're small, they let you build IEMs that can have good isolation(in fact they need to if you want any bass). and with 2crossovers+ a damping filter for each driver if needed, it's pretty easy to tune the IEM to the response you want without working too much on making the perfect inner shape for the air to move.
but as far as I can tell, it's not making IEMs to really have better frequency extension than one good dynamic driver. in fact they struggle a lot with trebles on multi BAs. and the crossovers are a problem, not a big one when well done, but they certainly don't increase fidelity. almost everybody agrees that 2crossovers should be the maximum.
 
and of course if you don't have a low impedance source, the sound can be pretty messed up.

 

[KamijoIsMyHero]

Not a gimmick. I was able to try out Noble's full line of IEMs up to and including the kaiser. The difference in experiencing the music is astounding. There could be a point though where the number of useful drivers pleateus, not sure where though or which IEM this is an example off

 

[uchihaitachi]

Not a gimmick. I was able to try out Noble's full line of IEMs up to and including the kaiser. The difference in experiencing the music is astounding. There could be a point though where the number of useful drivers pleateus, not sure where though or which IEM this is an example off

That could just have been due to the sound signature preferences. 
 
I want to know whether the science validates such claims.

 

[maverickronin]

  Are BA IEMs with higher and higher number of drivers a mere marketing gimmick?
 
If IEM manufacturers create from the same driver company (e.g. Knowles), can you hypothetically recreate all 'sound signatures' with only a couple of drivers?

 
 
I think the "driver wars" are mostly a marketing gimmick but there are benefits to crossovers and multiple drivers.
 
You can get adequate frequency response out of a single driver as the ER4 demonstrates.  It's FR is more extended than most multi driver models.  It's downfall though is distortion at higher volumes.  Adding a crossover and extra drivers can keep the distortion from increasing at higher volumes and/or reduce distortion at lower volumes.  Cramming in as many drivers as possible without thinking it though doesn't help much though.

 

[uchihaitachi]

   
 
I think the "driver wars" are mostly a marketing gimmick but there are benefits to crossovers and multiple drivers.
 
You can get adequate frequency response out of a single driver as the ER4 demonstrates.  It's FR is more extended than most multi driver models.  It's downfall though is distortion at higher volumes.  Adding a crossover and extra drivers can keep the distortion from increasing at higher volumes and/or reduce distortion at lower volumes.  Cramming in as many drivers as possible without thinking it though doesn't help much though.

So where would you say the 'sweet spot' for driver numbers lie? 

 

[Steve Eddy]

So where would you say the 'sweet spot' for driver numbers lie? 

Lots!



se

 

[StanD]

Now it's hybrid IEMs. Last year I picked up a Sony XBA-H3 that has a whopping 16mm Dynamic driver for bass and 2 BA drivers. It's 40 Ohms and very easy to drive. Not to mention, it sounds pretty good for an IEM.