Skeptico Saloon: An Objectivist Joint
Apr 16, 2015 at 1:55 AM Post #1,261 of 1,671
How did it get decided that high bit rate MP3 has an inaudible difference to uncompressed PCM? When have the people that wrote the codec's ever claimed that? There is not suppose to be an inaudible difference. Is it really  good? yes. Is there a night and day difference? no. Is there case's where there is night and day differences? maybe.
The maybe's is where I want to test things. But is not going to happen overnight, it has to be controlled as possible, single variable when possible. Has to be repeatable and replicated.
 
Apr 16, 2015 at 2:22 AM Post #1,263 of 1,671
  How did it get decided that high bit rate MP3 has an inaudible difference to uncompressed PCM? When have the people that wrote the codec's ever claimed that? There is not suppose to be an inaudible difference. Is it really  good? yes. Is there a night and day difference? no. Is there case's where there is night and day differences? maybe.
The maybe's is where I want to test things. But is not going to happen overnight, it has to be controlled as possible, single variable when possible. Has to be repeatable and replicated.

 
That's what double blind ABX testing in Foobar2000 (or a similar ABX generator) is for.
 
There are tons of posted test results on the net, with all sorts of test parameters, if you want to read about tests others have done.  Or, you can perform tests yourself, as many here (myself included) have done.  There are also websites that provide the files, some even have their own comparator for you.
 
I don't have the links right at my fingertips at the moment, but they're out there.  There's plenty of good guides and other information out there.
 
Personally, I rip my CDs losslessly with EAC, and convert to LAME V0 mp3 files for portable use.  Previous ABX testing of such files I've done tells me that any difference isn't worth my time to try hear any more.  I can't do it for anything but killer samples posted on Hydrogen Audio.  Perhaps slightly more revealing equipment may reveal the changes, but I'm not concerned about that until I have such.
 
Oh, and as Steve is alluding to, the whole idea is for the codec to try to only eliminate what you can't hear.  Obviously as the file bit rate goes up, the codec is able to do a better job of that.
 
Apr 16, 2015 at 2:27 AM Post #1,265 of 1,671
  How did it get decided that high bit rate MP3 has an inaudible difference to uncompressed PCM? When have the people that wrote the codec's ever claimed that? There is not suppose to be an inaudible difference. Is it really  good? yes. Is there a night and day difference? no. Is there case's where there is night and day differences? maybe.
The maybe's is where I want to test things. But is not going to happen overnight, it has to be controlled as possible, single variable when possible. Has to be repeatable and replicated.

 
You're absolutely right, of course. I think people just gets a little over excited and jumps to conclusions based on insufficient data.
"Killer samples" is one thing, but even beyond that the phenomenon is well known and documented.
 
Apr 16, 2015 at 2:34 AM Post #1,266 of 1,671
I'm told that it's cheatable. So if it's used, it would have to be used under tight supervision.

se

 
Yes, it is cheatable.  Fortunately, for one's own personal use that isn't a very important flaw.
 
It would be relatively simple for a proctor to supervise its use in a formal test setting, though.  But that does mean supervision, which is always more work than none.
 
Apr 16, 2015 at 2:56 AM Post #1,267 of 1,671
Yes, it is cheatable.  Fortunately, for one's own personal use that isn't a very important flaw.

It would be relatively simple for a proctor to supervise its use in a formal test setting, though.  But that does mean supervision, which is always more work than none.


Yup. But if you want meant full results, it takes some work.

se
 
Apr 16, 2015 at 9:13 AM Post #1,268 of 1,671
the fact that people fail the abx isn't proof that it's impossible to pass it. that much is sure, anybody who bothered to try and understand abx will acknowledge that.
but we also know a lot about statistics, and we can reliably use stats for what they are. when 50000people fail a test, and 1 comes telling he passed, you know it's possible, but you also have legitimate right to doubt the procedure and ask to know more.
because overly unfavorable odds start to make for something close to a rule.
 
from what I've tried and seen on the web, a mp3@320 is strictly identical to a 16/44 from 0 to mostly about -60db. (a few years back I uses to invert one track in audacity and then mix them and look at the spectra stuff. but I never really knew if it was a valid way to do it?).
anyway everybody can take a song in foobar, play it at his usual loudness with foobar volume maxed out, then lower the volume in foobar by 60db. it's no extraordinarily involving experience and it tells a lot about what differences we're actually talking about.
and to add to that, there is the masking effect, as the music playing will cleverly cover those -60db and below differences almost at all time. that's most of the work done with the mp3, to know where it can cut without us noticing because something will be masking the sound anyway at that moment.
 
so my opinion, from doing a good deal of mp3@320 vs lossless ABX myself, is that it is possible to succeed one, as long as you know what you're looking for, and only replay the same exact passage on the very song that has something audible. 
if a guy can do it with many kinds of songs on almost any passage with relative accuracy, then I'm very very confident that he converted the file badly. it may have some clipping because the mp3 is too close to 0db. or the guy is a noob and just used 2 different masters instead of converting the file himself(lol the difference is so obvious, mp3 sucks!!!! QED \o/). or he encoded with replay gain ^_^...
or simply that his sound system sucks at converting mp3 back to pcm( I experienced that myself with the fiio X3 on the first firmware). but I wouldn't believe the mp3 tech itself could be the reason for obvious audible differences frequent enough to be noticeable without a test. so for me, anybody telling something like "I don't need an ABX to tell that lossless sounds better" is wrong!(pick a reason: liar, ignorance, placebo) that much I don't need to leave to statistics.
 
 
 
obviously me saying this for "loud" -60db differences, can tell you a lot about what I think of people pretending that they hear a "better" sound from 24/96 compared to 16/44... again it can happen, no doubt about it, for pretty much the same reasons as above. the encoding messed up, using 2 different masters, and probably the most obvious, any sound system that actually struggles with one of the format, like ... would distort in the audible range because of too much ultrasounds or whatever.
 
and so just like with cables, my opinion is that the bad users and bad device choices make up for most of the "I can hear all the betterness, and so could my wife in the kitchen". the rest being placebo. and I'm still looking for the guys the ESS people talked about who can perceive -100db changes in sound. I'm ready to believe they exist, but where are they? if I was one of those guys I would be on TV and make showy demonstrations for the highres advertising. big bucks, big celebrity, how cool would that be!!!!! sadly I'm not one of the chosen few hifi people.
frown.gif

 
Apr 16, 2015 at 9:50 AM Post #1,270 of 1,671
How many people have got part way through one of these DBT or ABX things and then had an epiphany and thought "***** it, I need to get a life", turned their computer off, sold all their ridiculously expensive gear and lived happily ever after with their retro-stylee MP3 player and lowly 16 bit recordings?
 
I would love to read a collection of such stories from survivors of the affliction called audiophilia - it could be the feel-good smash of the summer.   Like Eat Pray Love but with much less hair and far more body odour.
 
Apr 16, 2015 at 9:50 AM Post #1,271 of 1,671
I'm told that it's cheatable. So if it's used, it would have to be used under tight supervision.

se

 
This is my issue with online results. It's hard to give sporadic test-passers the benefit of the doubt when a) it's so easy to cheat when unsupervised and b) I have no idea what they're hearing in real music samples, since I can't pass the test myself on real music.
 
Here's the two samples of a recent positive case (mp3 vs hi-res) here on the science forum:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEczQ1Q2RNTmFnRmc/view?usp=sharing
 
Torturing myself through 20 trials of quick switching this stuff makes it really hard to believe someone could differentiate the samples but I also know that, hey, the differences are in the audible spectrum, so anything is possible.
 
Apr 16, 2015 at 9:51 AM Post #1,272 of 1,671
 
Yes, it is cheatable.  Fortunately, for one's own personal use that isn't a very important flaw.
 
It would be relatively simple for a proctor to supervise its use in a formal test setting, though.  But that does mean supervision, which is always more work than none.

 
So how is the ABX plugin cheatable?
 
It's pretty easy to fake screenshots and if someone posts .wav's that were converted from different bitrate lossy codecs you can usually rank the original bitrates by converting them to FLAC or something and see which ones are most compressable.
 
Is that what you mean or is it something else?
 
Apr 16, 2015 at 9:57 AM Post #1,273 of 1,671
Yes, it is cheatable.  Fortunately, for one's own personal use that isn't a very important flaw.

It would be relatively simple for a proctor to supervise its use in a formal test setting, though.  But that does mean supervision, which is always more work than none.


So how is the ABX plugin cheatable?

It's pretty easy to fake screenshots and if someone posts .wav's that were converted from different bitrate lossy codecs you can usually rank the original bitrates by converting them to FLAC or something and see which ones are most compressable.

Is that what you mean or is it something else?


I could put this behind foobar and its abx plugin:


That'd give me bat ears basically listening to nothing but the HF content that mp3 assumes is inaudible under normal listening circumstances. Pretty sure I'd 10/10 every mp3 ABX test this way if I could still hear above 16kHz :p
 
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Apr 16, 2015 at 10:00 AM Post #1,274 of 1,671
That'd give me bat ears basically listening to nothing but the HF content that mp3 assumes is inaudible under normal listening circumstances. Pretty sure I'd 10/10 every mp3 ABX test this way if I could still hear above 16kHz
tongue.gif

 
LOL!  I should have thought of that!
 
Gonna give that a try later today.
 
Apr 16, 2015 at 10:09 AM Post #1,275 of 1,671
I'd put in an offer to help moderate the sound science subforum... thought it was a pretty long stretch myself but you never know. :xf_eek: One of the reasons given for (what I presume is, for now) my rejection was that "and, being a sponsor, I'm sure the science guys would just LOVE you (not)".

So--what would you guys say to that? Would you have trusted Joe Bloggs not to stamp out all dissenting opinion threatening the portable HiFi status quo represented by FiiO et al? :p Or would Joe Bloggs have bent over backwards in over-lenience of the quacks at Science, putting all our livelihoods in jeopardy? :eek: Or would Joe's personal viewpoint and official job position have struck a nice balance cancelling out each other to produce the perfectly impartial Sound Science mod for head-fi? :L3000:
 
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