[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have to take suggestion and psychology into account when conducting listening tests. If people expect to hear something they usually hear it. Check out the studies on wine where people are told that the same wine alternately costs $10 and $100. When told that it costs $100, it always rates as better while the $10 "version" usually gets low marks. This is the same reason people can't tell the difference between a coathanger and a four figure cable when they don't know what it is.

This is usually the result of people who don't know anything about wine. An expert should be able to easily tell apart a real $100 bottle of wine from two buck Chuck.

The placebo argument is a classic and tired one brought up again and again by cable deniers that simply doesn't hold up in the real world. If cables all DO sound the same, then the placebo effect should work perfectly. The most expensive cable is the best because it's the most expensive, job done.

Unfortunately, the effect doesn't work. I've tried some VERY expensive stuff that I didn't like AT ALL. Just one example, PS Audio Statement. I think it was a $700 power cord. A/Bed it against my PS Audio Prelude, which was something like $150. The placebo effect should be in full force, because both cables should sound exactly the same, my mind should be telling me that the $700 "Statement" cleaned the Preludes clock, I should sell the Prelude immediately, and be happy as a kitten with my new Statement level cord. Right? Isn't that how its supposed to work? Except it didn't work that way at all! The Statement uses a lot of ferrite and a bucket load of copper in its design, and it's a very bass heavy and dark sounding cord. I liked my Prelude much better, and sent the Statement back. How did that happen? Care to explain?

 

[music_man]

i would go so far as to say the power punch was better than the statement. they thought they were building the best cable they knew how at the time. they should have just listened to what they buillt before they sold it. since ps-audio is a great company i doubt they intended to rip off their customers. it just happened that way.

likewise with aq's last lineup. i think the gibraltar was a better speaker cable than the everest. that is just because once again, i do not prefer silver in speaker cables. many people might disagree though.

which brings up the point that many people hear different things. some may feel a $100 cable sounds the best and not a $25,000 one. that is why like you said davebsc, the effect does not work.

i have found especially with cables that the more expensive one is not always the one i like better even from the same manufacturer.

music_man

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man /img/forum/go_quote.gif i would go so far as to say the power punch was better than the statement. they thought they were building the best cable they knew how at the time. they should have just listened to what they buillt before they sold it. since ps-audio is a great company i doubt they intended to rip off their customers. it just happened that way.

Most of PS's "classic" cables weren't all that great. I was never a fan of the old xStream interconnects or speaker cables either. The Resolution and Transcendent cables especially from a few years ago were much better, but they weren't in production all that long. I haven't heard the new AC-10 or the AC-12, but I have a hard time believing they can outperform Shunyata's CX series. I do agree that PS is a great company. Paul makes himself very available for questions, and with the Perfect Wave stuff it seems like the company has a new found focus on truly high performance products. The gaincell stuff never did it for me.

 

[grokit]

Back to oxidation and resistivity for a second, thought I would add the "official" wiki-def:

"Wire material

Use of copper is more or less universal for speaker wire; it has low resistance and less cost compared to other suitable materials. Copper and aluminum both oxidize, but oxides of copper are conductive, while those of aluminum are capacitative and insulating.

Silver has a slightly lower resistivity than copper, which allows a thinner wire to have the same resistance. Silver is expensive, so a copper wire with the same resistance costs considerably less. Like copper, silver is also subject to oxidation.

Gold has a higher resistivity than either copper or silver, but it does not oxidize, so it can be used for wire-end terminations. Suitably specified gold flashing has its uses for appropriate tasks, but in domestic use such flashing is not normally functional, for several reasons."

 

[music_man]

some of you say you like silver coated. extruded or whatever. if given the choice would you take a high end solid copper cable over a lower end stranded silver coated(by whatever means) cable? do you feel silver just outperforms copper in any amount?

i mean like tara rsc against vdh that is $50 a meter. that might sound stupid but i was wondering if anyone feels you must have silver in your cable.

i prefer the tara gold to the everest and dream. none of those are coated though. in fact i am having a hard time finding a super high end silver coated cable!

music_man

 

[music_man]

i kind of typed my thoughts wrong. i meant: if someone offered you a $50 per meter vdh(or other silver coated cable) or a $1,500 per meter tara(or other solid copper cable). you could not hear them first. which would you gamble on? is it about price? or what you think would actually sound better to you? i saw vdh makes silver cables for less than $10usd a meter!

it seems most people were with me on solid copper. i just wonder how much better the coated copper crowd thinks they are.

i don't prefer the dream either. it is solid copper and solid silver. i say stick with one or the other in a single cable. untill i hear differently. i think the new "oak" is much nicer than the everest and new wildwood from aq and they are a lot less money. i just prefer copper speaker cables. to that effect the tara omega gold is the cats meow imo!

music_man

 

[SP Wild]

I would place my bets on the dearer cable unheard. Nothing wrong with copper. If my solid silver audioquests IC's were actually made of recycled coathanger - doesn't mean I will seek a refund. What I believe I hear is what I believe to be better - It just means I will suddenly start to speak of coathangers in an unusually high regard.

I don't believe headfiers are exposed to good ic's as good ones are not cheap. Niche market = small demand with few suppliers. Price = function of demand and supply. The only way to prove that cables do make a difference is to turn it into an olympic sport - and that won't happen.

 

[music_man]

i have come to the conclusion that it depends solely on the cable. there are $5 a meter silver coated cables and there are $5,000 a meter silver coated cables. i still prefer one or the other solid and no mixture though. also i have realised that the cheap cables a re "coated". the better cables are extruded or whatever and that seems to make a difference. i just do not hear that mixing them is any good solely in speaker cables. in ic's or power cords i have heard some nice ones. i sill think using solid silver "here" and solid copper "there" is better than using silver/copper hybrid cables througthout. that is just my opinion though.

still, i feel solid super high purtity occ copper makes the best speaker and headphone cables. silver is too bright to me to be at the end of the signal chain.

i think it is safe to say a very expensive solid copper cable may in fact be better than a cheap silver coated cable. likewise, with a solid silver cable.

music_man

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man /img/forum/go_quote.gif still, i feel solid super high purtity occ copper makes the best speaker and headphone cables. silver is too bright to me to be at the end of the signal chain. i think it is safe to say a very expensive solid copper cable may in fact be better than a cheap silver coated cable. likewise, with a solid silver cable. music_man

Cheap silver coated cable is never great. Like solid silver, solid copper can be good or bad, pretty much regardless of price. Depends on the cable. Generally I tend to prefer silver over copper, but a mix of the two can produce excellent results, for sure.

 

[Black Stuart]

DaveBSC,
I don't use 'cheap silver/plated copper wire' I bought mine from MWS - the copper is high conductivity OFC with a bright finish (very important that) silver plating.

I think it's worth introducing here ' the skin effect'. How does an audio signal/electrons travel via the conductor/s from A-B. Here we are dealing with a scientific fact and not 'received wisdom/BS'. Take a look at the info on Wikipedia.

So most of the signal is travelling on or near the surface and the quality/purity of the conductor is very important indeed. As stated the best conductor barring 'super conductors' is silver and that is why so many 'commercial' conductors are copper with silver plating. It also explains why the best (functioning) HDMI cables are silver plated copper.

I won two auctions yesterday - Mundorf silver/gold 24AWG and silver UPOCC 26AWG wire. It will be interesting for me to make up two more sets of i/cs - very nec. these reality checks. When I have made and tested them I will get back to this thread with the results.

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart /img/forum/go_quote.gif So most of the signal is travelling on or near the surface and the quality/purity of the conductor is very important indeed. As stated the best conductor barring 'super conductors' is silver and that is why so many 'commercial' conductors are copper with silver plating. It also explains why the best (functioning) HDMI cables are silver plated copper. I won two auctions yesterday - Mundorf silver/gold 24AWG and silver UPOCC 26AWG wire. It will be interesting for me to make up two more sets of i/cs - very nec. these reality checks. When I have made and tested them I will get back to this thread with the results.

Silver plated copper is very effective for high frequency "digital" applications such as S/Pdif or HDMI that are far above the audio band. It's not so great for analog cables carrying transmissions within the audio band, such as ICs and speaker cables. Tara makes this argument as to why they don't use SPC, and I agree with them.

Please let us know how your ICs turn out. The Mundorf in particular is supposed to be good stuff. They have actually just started a commercial cable company built around their silver/gold wire. Some competition for Mr. and Mrs. van der Kley.

 

[music_man]

the skin effect is not at the frequencies of analog or digital audio. so people trying to sell cables based on that really are bs'ing. hey, i am with you guys i love cables. i am just telling the truth as i know it.

the taras are solid copper. no silver at all. i am using the omega gold and it is my favorite speaker cable so far. my ic's and aes/ebu are solid silver. i prefer the tara to the aq everest(solid silver). it seems that there are no ultra high end spc cables. there must be a reason then. the most expensive spc cable i can find is from vdh for $500 a meter. are there much more expensive ones i don't know about?

music_man

 

[SP Wild]

Going by these posts my HD650 cable upgrade will be in the form of copper only.

Interestingly I have noted that nearly all audioquest IC's listed on ebay Aus are definite counterfits, at least 90 perc of high-end IC's, speaker cables etc are definite counterfits - I nearly ordered a set of AQ Sky ICs. I wonder how much of these fakes make it to a noob and then we have a new, fierce sceptic, proclaiming the rip-off when differences are not heard. I know I would have.

 

[Lenni]

Quote:

So what's in a Cable? Let's make a bold statement: "The best Cable is No Cable" Let's make another one: "The Ideal Cable does not change the Signal traveling through it in ANY way." Let's make a third one: "No Cable can improve the sound-quality of a system, they only make it worse in varying degrees." And indeed, the best Cables I came across make things worse only a very little bit. The worst however.... I personally divide "effects" in audio into three "orders". These refer both to magnitude of effects and to the "obscurity" of the underlying principles. First Order effects are those that produce massive and immediate changes to the sound. First Order Effects also mostly tend to have a direct, simple, logical and scientific explanation. To elaborate, for interconnects capacitance is a first order effect. Use Goertz Interconnects (these are essentially unrolled capacitors) for a few meters and most sources will substantially roll off the treble due to the excessive Capacitance of the Cable. Second Order effects make appreciable differences but are harder to pin down with logical explanations, though in most cases they exist and can be found. To elaborate, the sonic difference between stranded cable, litz/hyperlitz cable and solid-core cable falls into this category, as does the dielectrical quality. Both matter quite a lot, but ultimately, if our cable has massive problems with First Order Effects any second order effects (for better or worse) will often be swamped out by these. Third Order effects are way down and also, in many systems the resolution of the System is not high enough to seriously magnify the differences. In my own system I only begin to get a handle on third order effects. I think the Conductor-material argument (silver vs. copper vs. plated copper vs. exotic conductors) falls into this category.

Hi, I just stumbled across this SITE. is anybody familiar with it? seems a pretty good source of info. I'd say the statement "The best Cable is No Cable" seems kinda make sense

 

[Uncle Erik]

DaveBSC, I was not aware the was anything to know about wire. Please direct me to genuine evidence. All you offer is folklore, superstition and hokum. So does anyone elee who purports to "know" about wire. You are speculating based on the collective folklore you've read and what you expect to hear when you "listen" to a cable. You cannot pass a blind test and you know it. You also know very well that there are no measurable differences in wire. There's nothing but nothing in cable "research."

I am posting from the phone and cannot link to surveys and research, but there is a great deal of research supporting that even experts have a difficult time telling wines apart.

The critical difference with wine is that you can objectively measure the chemical diffference between different wine varieties. Whether that makes one better from another boils down to taste. But you can demonstrate a physical difference, unlike cables.

If you actually know something about cables - aside from folklore and superstition - go ahead and tell us. Maybe you can finally settle 30 years of controversy with absolutely no tangible results.