[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif i have had neither of the IE8 or westone 3 but common sence says the armatures will be better at higher volume and the dynamic will sound much fuller at lower volume, its always been the case, are you a rock out loud listener or a keep it calm and enjoy the music type of person, if your the latter then the IE8 may be for you but if you like a little bit more juice i suspect the se530 and westone 3 may provide a little more quality at high volume.

You've been called out soooo many times on these forums for making these kinds of assessments without actually having heard the products, I would have thought you would have learned something by now, obviously not. I have owned all of them and from my experience, yet again, I think you're full of it. When I've turned up the IE8's to really rock out they've performed excellently.

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero /img/forum/go_quote.gif You've been called out soooo many times on these forums for making these kinds of assessments without actually having heard the products, I would have thought you would have learned something by now, obviously not. I have owned all of them and from my experience, yet again, I think you're full of it. When I've turned up the IE8's to really rock out they've performed excellently.

what on earth are you talking about dude, i dont have experience im talking from a common sence point of view you nobjockey, 3 speakers is usually better than one. one speaker coping with highs,mids and lows will start to struggle at very high volume its inevitable, this is where multi drivers excel.

dont start giving me jib just because you dont like me, i never said the IE8 will struggle i just said its LIKELY to start breaking up before the westone 3 or se530 at high volume. dont take my word on it, ask shure, westone and ultimate ears yourself why multi drivers are an advantage over single drivers, do you think they just implement them for no reason. ofcourse you can rock out to IE8,er4's, atrio's etc etc, the point im making is the multi driver armature phones are likely to hold off distortion at high volumes better, so dont go on like an idiot even you know the advantages of multi drivers, im just pointing them out.

ofcourse the IE8 are extremely loud, even more so than the westone and se530, this is a good thing but also increases likelihood of distortion givien the fact its one driver pumping out huge bass and mids and highs, go figure. im not saying its not good im saying its more likely that the shures and westone's will excell in the mids and highs department.

 

[mnemonix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChroniCali /img/forum/go_quote.gif really thinking about gettin either se530 or ie8... cant decide

Faced with the same choice I went with the SE530's. A couple of hours listening since receiving them I'm very happy with my choice.

Comfort is great out of the box with the standard foamies for me. I was slightly disappointed with the cable, it's... 'plasticy' is the best word to describe it, as opposed to the supple, rubbery cables found on some other phones.

I think the treble roll off is overstated, maybe if I was to A/B them with the current treble-king fotm I'd think it was an issue, but that's the trouble with relativism, and frankly anymore treble than these things appear to have would be fatiguing and unnatural to me in the long term.

There is a current trend for a U shaped, smiley, frequency response anyway - this is to be found not only in the listening preferences of the, dare I say, younger generation, but in the way musicians eq their instruments, especially bassists. It makes for an immediately exciting, percussive sound, all click & thump, but ultimately the musicality suffers, the tone, timbre and texture of the music as a whole is all but missing. I genuinely think Shure know what they're doing and to my ears have made a very good, musical sounding earphone. At this point I'm prefering it to my ESW9 which sound a little hollow in comparison.

It may not be fotm anymore, but it's longevity as a highly respected iem establishes it without doubt as a classic. The IE8 may yet become one, but it's too early to say and in my opinion the criticisms I've heard, not least of which is the insane 200 hours + burn in time (are we burning the phones or the brain in here folks?), made it a less safe bet to buy 'unheard'.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif what on earth are you talking about dude, i dont have experience im talking from a common sence point of view you nobjockey, 3 speakers is usually better than one. one speaker coping with highs,mids and lows will start to struggle at very high volume its inevitable, this is where multi drivers excel.

This is a crock, you've bought into a bunch of marketing hype and are now spewing it here as gospel. In the case of headphones there's no evidence to suggest that multi-drivers are any better than a well designed single driver, if it did there would be a ton more full-sized headphones with multi-drivers. It's all about how the designs are implemented. So IMO your "common sense" argument doesn't hold water and until you actually hear the products in question your opinions on them are worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif dont start giving me jib just because you dont like me...

To be honest I don't give a toss about you, it's the misinformation you spread.

The multi-driver misinformation aside, the biggest problem I have with your posts here and in other threads is you seem to think you have a pretty good idea how things you've never heard will sound as evidenced earlier and quoted below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif the IE8 will have more impact a lower volume, it will carry great detail and quality at lower volume but i suspect the multi driver setup of the se530 and westone 3 will run away at high volume and when the IE8 starts struggling with all the ranges the multi driver phones will still sound fresh and uncomplex.

Having not heard the IE8's you have no idea how they will sound at lower volume and you have no idea whether they will struggle with anything more than the E500's or 3's at higher volumes.

This is what I was directly referring to. You've been called out numerous times for this type of thing so it's nothing new. If you're going to continue to do it then don't act surprised when you get called on it.

 

[Arjisme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif [...] the wire problem with the SE530 has improved notably, some are still having problems, but they may be old stock or not be being treated very well.

Guys, pay close attention to what Qusp said here. The E500/SE530 old cables had problems. The newer ones are a different story. I think you still factor it in as a concern, but I wouldn't rate it as high a worry as I would have a year ago. In fact, knowing that Shure has outstanding customer service and a 2 year warranty, I would not be too concerned about cable issues at this point.

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is a crock, you've bought into a bunch of marketing hype and are now spewing it here as gospel.

nope afraid there is some truth to it, its very difficult to make a very good full range driver, a good one is usually extremely expensive, what exactly is crock.

if you look at 90% of high quality home systems, the speakers usually have multiple speakers, often with standalone subwoofers, and there is good reason, are you really that stupid to think that multiple drivers dont have advantages over single drivers, among these advantages are reduced distortion at high volume.

its not marketing, its fact.

now ofcourse thier are superb full range drivers out there and the IE8 may well be one of those products utilizing such a driver, ALL I WAS SAYING IS ITS LIKELY NOT TO PRODUCE THE DETAIL THAT MULTIPLE DRIVERS MIGHT AT VERY HIGH VOLUME.

please dont make me post a thousand quotes and websites on here explaining to you the difficulties of making a full range driver work and work well.

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero /img/forum/go_quote.gif To be honest I don't give a toss about you, it's the misinformation you spread. The multi-driver misinformation aside, the biggest problem I have with your posts here and in other threads is you seem to think you have a pretty good idea how things you've never heard will sound as evidenced earlier and quoted below. .

so what exactly is the misinformation im telling??

and you say im talking about things ive never heard and telling people how they sound when im not, i was trying to explain the highs and lows of both sides, i said multiple drivers are likely to cope with distortion better and that single full range drivers often struggle at high volume to keep the whole frequency range clean and tidy, is this wrong? i think you will find most will agree with me that this is usually one of the high points of multiple drivers.

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is a crock, you've bought into a bunch of marketing hype and are now spewing it here as gospel. In the case of headphones there's no evidence to suggest that multi-drivers are any better than a well designed single driver, if it did there would be a ton more full-sized headphones with multi-drivers. It's all about how the designs are implemented.

since when was it possible to put multiple dynamic drivers inside full size headphones!, it hasnt been done because its physically impossible at this moment in time, they probably could do it but the headphones would be extremely big and un-manageable.

and yes ofcourse theres evidence that multiple drivers have advantages over single drivers. and your contridicting yourself a little bit here because you just said a multi driver setup is no better than a WELL DESIGNED single driver, yes well designed...usually means more money to build and more cost to you and me. honestly, why are you even arguing with me about it, all i said is that multi drivers have some advantages over single drivers why are you offended, its not misinformation its using your brain.

EDIT: homers, sorry to hi-jack your thread with all of these posts and hopefully the arguement will be either deleted or ignored because its pathetic, as far as comfort vs wire is concerned your main priority should be comfort over the cable as IEM's are difficult to use if uncomfortable.

some have said the triple fi are bad for comfort, some have said its too big, some have said it can be made comfortable with mods. as far as the se530 is concerned it is a more intuitive design, designed to sit within the ear is a good point just like the westone 3, and the black olives are a big hit with most people ( black olives are tapered foams that are very comfortable, last a good deal of time, washable and generally give superb isolation thus improved detail, bass and impact. these can be modded to fit the triple fi 10 but this used as standard sticks out of the ear and when modded has caused problems for a few on here.

 

[recstar24]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnemonix /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is a current trend for a U shaped, smiley, frequency response anyway - this is to be found not only in the listening preferences of the, dare I say, younger generation, but in the way musicians eq their instruments, especially bassists. It makes for an immediately exciting, percussive sound, all click & thump, but ultimately the musicality suffers, the tone, timbre and texture of the music as a whole is all but missing. I genuinely think Shure know what they're doing and to my ears have made a very good, musical sounding earphone.

Could not have said it better myself. I love the shure se530's. I used to own the e5's, and the 530's are such a dramatic improvement from those. A very balanced sound, the bass is absolutely perfect in my opinion. It is NOT hyped, no bloat, very tight, great impact, just a very linear quality to it. The midrange though is absolutely dead on. Living near shure HQ, having went to school with some of the consumer and headphone guys, and meeting them at various points in time, I have come to realize that they are just bunch of music lovers at the end of the day. In fact, I believe a lot of the workers there have their own bands and everyone once in awhile they jam out or gig. I have used their mics for a very long time and the shure sm58 is pretty much standard for groups that need a rugged mic that works and sounds great but won't break the bank, important for vocal jazz ensembles that need every member to be mic'd. Though the hi end might be perceived as a tad rolled off, I agree that reading impressions seem to exaggerate it way too much. I liken it to the hd650 but with a bit more extension, liveliness, and sparkle on top, which you can hear with the shimmer of a cymbal or hi hat, its actually quite nice not having the highs rape your ears especially with IEM's

 

[recstar24]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif nope afraid there is some truth to it, its very difficult to make a very good full range driver, a good one is usually extremely expensive, what exactly is crock. if you look at 90% of high quality home systems, the speakers usually have multiple speakers, often with standalone subwoofers, and there is good reason, are you really that stupid to think that multiple drivers dont have advantages over single drivers, among these advantages are reduced distortion at high volume.

Though I think you make some valid arguments that could extend to the speaker world, I believe the headphone world is a bit different. Since headphone transducers are much smaller than speaker transducers, and do not need to transfer as much energy and current into actual sound, a single dynamic headphone driver can actually cover the full 20-20 plus a few extra octaves if needed. Keep in mind the majority of our current top of the line headphones are still single dynamic transducers - grado, sennheiser, AKG, etc - or electrostat designs.

A single dynamic transducer in an IEM like the sleeks or senn IE8 should have no issues covering the full range or handling complex passages on paper. Your only feeding it milliwatts of power, and since it if right in your canal you don;t need to pump the volume, vs. a speaker driver that is 2-3 meters away from you, interacting with the room, and probably transferring multiple watts of power; therefore, your analogy does not quite stick.

I believe the reason why the balanced armature designs all have multiple drivers is because a single balanced armature designs would have serious frequency response deviations all over the place, so you need 2-3 just to keep the frequency response somewhat linear.

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by recstar24 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Though I think you make some valid arguments that could extend to the speaker world, I believe the headphone world is a bit different. Since headphone transducers are much smaller than speaker transducers, and do not need to transfer as much energy and current into actual sound, a single dynamic headphone driver can actually cover the full 20-20 plus a few extra octaves if needed. Keep in mind the majority of our current top of the line headphones are still single dynamic transducers - grado, sennheiser, AKG, etc - or electrostat designs. A single dynamic transducer in an IEM like the sleeks or senn IE8 should have no issues covering the full range or handling complex passages on paper. Your only feeding it milliwatts of power, and since it if right in your canal you don;t need to pump the volume, vs. a speaker driver that is 2-3 meters away from you, interacting with the room, and probably transferring multiple watts of power; therefore, your analogy does not quite stick. I believe the reason why the balanced armature designs all have multiple drivers is because a single balanced armature designs would have serious frequency response deviations all over the place, so you need 2-3 just to keep the frequency response somewhat linear.

headphones and speakers are surely much of the same tho, bass makes a speaker move slow no matter how big or small it is, high notes make the speaker move very quickly, now if that speaker needs to move slow and fast at the same time this can create bad stuff in the music because the speaker cant do it, this is why its difficult for single drivers a real high volume, and this may well be why great full range drivers are so expensive, now i believe the best speakers in the world are full range drivers but they are so expensive and this surely is because they are harder to make than lots of seperate speakers.

even if the speakers are tiny they still have to move, why else would they bother making multi driver headphones if there was no impact on the sound. and your last comment about armatures is very fair but many etymotic owners would argue heavily with you about that.

you may well be right, i just dont know why elnero is hittin me so hard when i was only stating some fair points like you said.

 

[recstar24]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif headphones and speakers are surely much of the same tho, bass makes a speaker move slow no matter how big or small it is, high notes make the speaker move very quickly, now if that speaker needs to move slow and fast at the same time this can create bad stuff in the music because the speaker cant do it, this is why its difficult for single drivers a real high volume, and this may well be why great full range drivers are so expensive, now i believe the best speakers in the world are full range drivers but they are so expensive and this surely is because they are harder to make than lots of seperate speakers. even if the speakers are tiny they still have to move, why else would they bother making multi driver headphones if there was no impact on the sound. and your last comment about armatures is very fair but many etymotic owners would argue heavily with you about that. you may well be right, i just dont know why elnero is hittin me so hard when i was only stating some fair points like you said.

I am not sure what is between you and elnero, though it appears there is some history there. All I wanted to do was to address some of the more basic physics behind transducers and sound.

The fact that headphone drivers are much smaller is a HUGE factor in why they perform and operate differently. Since the actual surface of the driver is much smaller than your typical speaker driver, it doesn't need to exert movement nowhere near that of a speaker driver. We are talking a much smaller fraction of actual surface area moving back and forth. Consider that headphone sensitivity is measured in milliwatts, and speaker sensitivity is measured in watts, we can see that headphone drivers really deal with a fraction of what speaker drivers have to deal with. Again I do believe the biggest reason they used multiple drivers for IEM's is because a single balanced armature will exhibit some noticeable frequency response deviations, and I do believe that a bit of marketing hype of "more is better" is thrown in as well. Again I allude to the fact that the best dynamic headphones only have one dynamic transducer (as far as I know).

I do feel you cover basic speaker driver theory pretty well - my point is that though the core of what you are stating is correct for the speaker world, the headphone driver is a mere fraction of what you are describing (in terms of surface area and force, and the movement of current through the voice coil and magnet) that the argument isn't directly applicable.

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by recstar24 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not sure what is between you and elnero, though it appears there is some history there. All I wanted to do was to address some of the more basic physics behind transducers and sound. The fact that headphone drivers are much smaller is a HUGE factor in why they perform and operate differently. Since the actual surface of the driver is much smaller than your typical speaker driver, it doesn't need to exert movement nowhere near that of a speaker driver. We are talking a much smaller fraction of actual surface area moving back and forth. Consider that headphone sensitivity is measured in milliwatts, and speaker sensitivity is measured in watts, we can see that headphone drivers really deal with a fraction of what speaker drivers have to deal with. Again I do believe the biggest reason they used multiple drivers for IEM's is because a single balanced armature will exhibit some noticeable frequency response deviations, and I do believe that a bit of marketing hype of "more is better" is thrown in as well. Again I allude to the fact that the best dynamic headphones only have one dynamic transducer (as far as I know). I do feel you cover basic speaker driver theory pretty well - my point is that though the core of what you are stating is correct for the speaker world, the headphone driver is a mere fraction of what you are describing (in terms of surface area and force, and the movement of current through the voice coil and magnet) that the argument isn't directly applicable.

i am in 80% agreement with you

however i still think if one driver has to cope with the whole frequency range its job is harder than 2 or 3 drivers managing the frequency range seperately, the do still have to move slow for bass an fast for highs, i know the movement is minimal either way but i think this is still how they work no?, i know they are small and really dont exert much but the fact remains they must move to create the sound, slower for bass,quicker for highs

agree to disagree??

 

[recstar24]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif i am in 80% agreement with you however i still think if one driver has to cope with the whole frequency range its job is harder than 2 or 3 drivers managing the frequency range seperately, the do still have to move slow for bass an fast for highs, i know the movement is minimal either way but i think this is still how they work no?, i know they are small and really dont exert much but the fact remains they must move to create the sound, slower for bass,quicker for highs agree to disagree??

What your saying is just fine; however, there have been plenty of headphones/IEM's with a single dynamic driver that are able to do it all just fine. My HP-1000's do the highs and lows things at the same time really well to be honest with you, and I am sure the upcoming HD800's will do the whole highs and lows at the same time pretty well too

I guess the point that I am trying to make and that elnero is alluding to is that "more equals better" is not always the case when it comes to headphones. Keep in mind multiple drivers require a crossover network, and crossovers are NEVER perfect. Thankfully the crossovers are hopefully of high quality because the signal is so low that they don't need to be overbuilt like with speaker crossovers, but you never know. One thing I am really curious about are the sleeks, because they use ONE dynamic driver to handle it all, and handle the bass and treble through acoustics, which traditionally is a much better option than electrically chopping up the signal. I will say that I enjoy my multi driver se530's just fine, but they do not compare to my single driver HP-1000's one bit

 

[elnero]

jinx20001, recstar24 replied with much of what I would have said and more in regards to the multi-driver argument. That's really not what I was originally trying to get at though. What I was trying to point out is no matter what kind of logic you try to put behind your assessment, you haven't heard the IE8's so your comments really have no validity.