[musicday]

If one is serious about the best sound he should sell everything else (perhaps except source gear) and get the new Orpheus. At least that's what I believe after watching Jude's video. Portability is overrated.

Even Orpheus sounds the best of the best it does not worth the money,unless you are millionaire and if you are you wouldn't be here
The price should have been 10000 euro!
So if the Shure SKE1500 delivers 5% of what Orpheus can deliver then we have a very good deal.
With that top price you can buy a 100 sqm flat 3-4 bedroom ready decorated and fully furnished in one of nice East European countries.

 

[analogsurviver]

  If one is serious about the best sound he should sell everything else (perhaps except source gear) and get the new Orpheus. At least that's what I believe after watching Jude's video. Portability is overrated.

It depends on the use. 
 
I require headphones primarily for the live music recording monitoring. In the same acoustic space with the musicians. Which rules out ANY open headphones.
 
I did try to listen to original Orpheus during High End 2015 in Munich - at the Senn booth. Total waste of time - since it was in open space, people talking, music blasting from nearby exhibitors, etc. ANY semi decent chinese IEM for $15 would have provided better SQ in THAT environment. 
 
I agree, for home use, there is probably nothing better available than the new Orpheus. I wish I could afford it. But for my primary requirement in headphones, they are utterly useless. And with the same probability as above, KSE1500 IS the IEM I have been dreaming of for the past XY? years. I did try ie800 - and could not have walked away less impressed.
 
I do not like even the thought of multi driver IEMs ( the more drivers they have, the worse they are getting ). No way the output of all these drivers can be made to behave as coherent piston. Think of the old joke about the rhythm section members discovering they are making suicide - at the same time, on two adjacent skyscrapers. Drummer says : "What, you TOO ?!!" Bassist replies: "Yes, you TOO ?" Eventually, both decide the best way to do it is by jumping, at least ONCE in their lives, so that they hit the floor - together.
 
To no avail, what could be heard on the floor, sounded like this : ....tu...TUP  ( They failed to be together, even in their very last attempt )
 
It is the time differences and all sorts of trouble stemming from these that make me steer WELL clear of any multi driver headphone. 
 
I do think that portable use of something of KSE1500 calibre for pure listening on the go is an overkill - to stay on the polite side. 
 
And 55K for headphone - regardless of quality - is too much. I doubt how many of these will end up in the homes of the true enthusiasts - and how many will be basically gathering dust with people buying them more as status symbol than anything else. People loaded with that much with money usually have zero time available for music listening.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

I wish it were commonly so but not a big picture issue for me. Simply a matter of what does more harm or good. I'm not a black and white guy and understand trade-offs. None of these discussion points would limit me if I simply liked it enough on a listen. 

Your 1st reply to me was that modifying and mixing HD was difficult, to rationalize the choice of not playing formats beyond 24/96. Surely, a powerful PC with unlimited time and processing cycles has an easier time modifying 24/192 than a DAP does with 24/96 in real time. Now you're on the other side of that coin and saying that doing it in real time is easy when it's actually more difficult. It's clearly more taxing in real time as you don't have the luxury of waiting for rendering. You still need to upsample make the changes, apply dither and return to the original format for it to be optimal. There's added buffers, processing and background noise, like in FLAC vs wave. There's more going on than just bits. I'm not against DSP when it does more good than harm but just engaging the EQ circuit on a DAP does involve some harm. Whether one notices with a given file or setup is individual as it's not catastrophic but I avoid them when possible because I tend to notice on my favorite emotive files.

You can use programs like Wavelab Pro or Cubase, if your setup and recording are up for it, and clearly hear the difference between the very best dithers and plugins. Things like the Weiss INT202 SP/dif to best DACs, all with selected linears supplies help here. Alternately, a DAP isn't as revealing so doesn't need to be as critical but it's also much more limited in resources.

One effect you may want in a headphone output correction context (FIR convolution to improve frequency and phase response) has no use for upsampling above the source sample rate. Indeed it works just fine at the source sample rate and the fact that there are many possible source sample rates (from 44.1 up to 192kHz) is a source of much complication.

Another effect you may want (direct parametric equalization) also does not have to be oversampled. Oversampling a parametric equalizer merely makes the output equalization curves more closely match the theoretical mathematical model of those peaking, low-shelf, high-shelf etc. filters, at the cost of creating resampling artifacts (which on the other hand shouldn't really be audible in any case in a good resampler). If you use a paragraphic equalizer with good visualization of the actual output curve, it doesn't matter whether you oversample or not.

 

[johnston21]

Regarding price; considering that the SHA900 amp is $1000 alone, and the case for the KSE1500's amp appears to be of SOMES quality ($350 ?), + the other accessories, the $ value of the iem's themselves would appear to be approx $1500, 1.5x the price of the SE 846's.
 
Looking at it this way, I may just convince myself I need these...

 

[goodvibes]

  Oh, this, taken together,  IS the very misunderstanding of the electrostatics most people, even those who are familiar with and use them, usually can't get the full grasp of what is actually happening.
 
Cruel facts: the worst condition electrostatics have to operate under are headphones. Take Stax Lambda Pro, for example; the driver capacitance is roughly less than half the total capacitive load, the other half is "hidden" in the cable. It means that whatever the POWER bandwidth ( the frequency response up to which the system can work without distortion/limitting , which is NOT equal to the small signal frequency response ) the electrostatic amplifier is providing, it is cut in half or less. I forgot  the exact values, but it is approx 56 pF for the driver and approx 80 pF for the cable.
 
It is even worse with small portable SR-001MK2 - cable eating up 2/3rds or more of the entire capacitive load. On top of their far lower current capability amp(s) - as a full sized ES amp would drain batteries in minutes. Same/similar has to apply to KSE 1500 as well.
 
 The new Orpheus topology with the actual active element in the cup itself IS the breaktrough electrostatic headphones have been longing for from the day one. It brings the stray capacitance nearly to zero, in case od ES headphones that means doubling (or more ) of power bandwidth and frequency response , given the same size/power of the amplifier. One can increase the size of the amp n-times - and end up with an electr(i/o)(stati)c chair.  There are limits within this is allowed - in EU at least, there is impossible to sell high voltage amps once they pass certain amount of current they are capable of providing. 
 
I designed, in 1986, an amp and headphones that left the original Orpheus hopelessly in the dust. But they are in storage since the end of 1999 - as the amp is capable of 65 mA per stator, 1700 VACpp, meaning one has 4x 850 VDC (no signal present ) at 65 mA class A amp on his/hers head. That is WAY past lethal. The total performance was/is 50 kHz @-3 dB, at full output, in this case frequency response and power bandwidth being the same.
 
Senn has suceeded in extending the frequency response to 100 kHz while keeping the power of the amp to manageable/safe level with its new configutration, which, to my knowledge, has not been used for electrostatic transducer before. And I congratulate their team for coming up with this ingenious solution. The physical appeareance of the amp with its retracting tubes and control knobs etc is pure bling and could have been avoided while keeping the cost a bit more manageable - but the relocation of the active element into the cup itself is definitely clever move in the right direction.
 
This solution has been used for ages - in every capacitor principle microphone on the planet, from the day one. Yet applying it to high voltage high power for headphones (compared to minuscule requirements for the mics ) must have been quite a challenge. 

Sonically flat past 16k while playing loud enough is all I need and with Shure doing the amp design, they have plenty of control over reliability.

 Those voltages and requisite gaps aren't required to play loud enough and my various old low voltage Stax with their high capacitance round or ribbon cables are all flat well beyond 20K and play louder than I can enjoy. We agree that the Orpheus is overkill, as it should be.
 
Everything's a compromise and those 4 years of research got them theirs. I expect it also got them reliability. I'm sure there could be a better cable that no one would use because it would have to be bulkier and I'm also sure that this one isn't magic and has the expected capacitance of thinnish wires running next to each other. No more and no less. They likely chose to not do a connector at the phone due to bulk and possibly sweat but it wouldn't be a big deal to accommodate.

 

[goodvibes]

One effect you may want in a headphone output correction context (FIR convolution to improve frequency and phase response) has no use for upsampling above the source sample rate. Indeed it works just fine at the source sample rate and the fact that there are many possible source sample rates (from 44.1 up to 192kHz) is a source of much complication.

Another effect you may want (direct parametric equalization) also does not have to be oversampled. Oversampling a parametric equalizer merely makes the output equalization curves more closely match the theoretical mathematical model of those peaking, low-shelf, high-shelf etc. filters, at the cost of creating resampling artifacts (which on the other hand shouldn't really be audible in any case in a good resampler). If you use a paragraphic equalizer with good visualization of the actual output curve, it doesn't matter whether you oversample or not.

Can't do that in the dig domain without some loss unless you at least use some dither. It's the same parameters as a digital volume control but frequency dependant. Doesn't mean that some can't do an acceptable job of it but not optimum. I used my AK120 with HiDef knowing I dropped bits at lower volumes and didn't think about it but I knew what was happening. Same reason FiiO is moving to analog V controls. You can do some EQ without changing the bit depth but it's limited and dither (noise) will always be needed.

 

[analogsurviver]

  Sonically flat past 16k while playing loud enough is all I need and with Shure doing the amp design, they have plenty of control over reliability.

 Those voltages and requisite gaps aren't required to play loud enough and my various old low voltage Stax with their high capacitance round or ribbon cables are all flat well beyond 20K and play louder than I can enjoy. We agree that the Orpheus is overkill, as it should be.
 
Everything's a compromise and those 4 years of research got them theirs. I expect it also got them reliability. I'm sure there could be a better cable that no one would use because it would have to be bulkier and I'm also sure that this one isn't magic and has the expected capacitance of thinnish wires running next to each other. No more and no less. They likely chose to not do a connector at the phone due to bulk and possibly sweat but it wouldn't be a big deal to accommodate.

I do not agree with quite a few points, but most notably that Orpheus 2 is overkill . I would call it the first successfull attempt at the minimum requirement for a truly transparent transducer. I do want the overall chain, from microphone to the end transducer, to support bandwidth of at least 100 kHz within say + some - max 6 dB and
levels that exceed any known sound source. Orpheus2 is the first electrostatic headphone that has the chance to do it, while possibly being challenged with present (or future ...) dynamic drivers a la HE 1000 - that also should be capable of getting that high and at lower cost.
 
To stop the siege of answers "WHY" - quick answer. Because it does sound more natural and effortless that way. It is FAR less sharp than bandwidth limited "whatever" - be it source, amp, mike or headphone - or combination of all these. I know how true  50 kHz bandwidth system sounds - and it is extremely seldom sharp or piercing. Extending that to 100 kHz ( TOTL mikes and recorders can record it today - now there will be something that can play it back as intended ) should be even mote lifelike - and not bright at all. Just detailed extremely close to the real thing.
 
I hope I get to hear the Orpheus 2 some day with good recording - and that KSE1500, something within my financial reach, lives up to my expectations. As noted before, these are two horses for VERY different courses - and both represent the SOTA at the moment and possibly quite some time to come. I am looking forward to impressions and particularly some good objective measurements on both of these interesting designs.

 

[goodvibes]

OK. I'm a fan of digital having higher bandwidth due to time constants but the analog domain doesn't have those issues when strictly speaking of bandwidth, at least not for me. We can agree to disagree on requirements and get back to the Shures.

 

 

[Sooloos]

I contacted Shure UK's distribution HQ today to try to discover when the KSE 1500 was to be available in the UK having seen Jude's TV review. 
 
The answer so far as availability in concerned seems to be towards the end of December. 
 
However, the guys at Shure could not have been more enthusiastic and helpful in their response to my enquiry. It turned out that they have a pre-production demo unit which I was invited to listen to. Needing no second invitation I got myself down to HQ at Waltham Cross where I was given a cup of coffee, a comfy chair, an explanation of the workings of the unit and allowed to hook it up to my RWAK240+ and have a listen ..... Undiluted Joy! (that was before I knew I couldn't buy one before the end of the year)
I can't improve upon Jude's words "...to my ears, it is simply the best-sounding, most resolving in-ear headphone ever..." but I can completely endorse them.
In addition, they are unbelievably tiny, light and neat, and with stunning sound quality, exclusion of external noise and the comfort of such a form factor they are serious rivals to full size electrostatic headphones for use at home and for portable use when travelling unrivalled. 
 
I'm looking forward to my Christmas present to myself and hoping it is available in time (or before).

 

[snejk]

 

That's great to hear Sooloos! Hopefully more UK headfiers will get the opportunity to demo them also.

 

[gerelmx1986]

Wonder how a stat headphone like shure KSE or a STAX will render a recording like NAXOS records THE VIRTUAL HAYDN: Keyboard sonatas
 
Basically they wanted to recreate Haydn lifetime's rooms of his house and the ezterhazy palace Halls... so what they did was to record an impulse of the reverberation of these settings and then placed the artist and instruments on a studio (i assume noise-proof'ed) and a massive spehrical speaker array where they fired the "reverb impulse" while the rtist played to simulate the acoustics vis a DSP
 
First 3 programs of 14 i think(Hi-res audio on BDs) sounded OK, but the rest sounded like a studio recording dry + bathroom effect added ina typical audio editing tool liek audacity or nero wave editor.... sent then straight to windows trash and kept my CD boxset recorded in 1999-2002 by austrian albel Capriccio Christiane shcornesheim, far better sound

 

[Tony1110]

I contacted Shure UK's distribution HQ today to try to discover when the KSE 1500 was to be available in the UK having seen Jude's TV review. 

The answer so far as availability in concerned seems to be towards the end of December. 

However, the guys at Shure could not have been more enthusiastic and helpful in their response to my enquiry. It turned out that they have a pre-production demo unit which I was invited to listen to. Needing no second invitation I got myself down to HQ at Waltham Cross where I was given a cup of coffee, a comfy chair, an explanation of the workings of the unit and allowed to hook it up to my RWAK240+ and have a listen ..... Undiluted Joy! (that was before I knew I couldn't buy one before the end of the year)
I can't improve upon Jude's words "...to my ears, it is simply the best-sounding, most resolving in-ear headphone ever..." but I can completely endorse them.
In addition, they are unbelievably tiny, light and neat, and with stunning sound quality, exclusion of external noise and the comfort of such a form factor they are serious rivals to full size electrostatic headphones for use at home and for portable use when travelling unrivalled. 

I'm looking forward to my Christmas present to myself and hoping it is available in time (or before).

Thomann seem to be taking pre-orders. Forecast to ship in a couple of weeks

 

[analogsurviver]

  Wonder how a stat headphone like shure KSE or a STAX will render a recording like NAXOS records THE VIRTUAL HAYDN: Keyboard sonatas
 
Basically they wanted to recreate Haydn lifetime's rooms of his house and the ezterhazy palace Halls... so what they did was to record an impulse of the reverberation of these settings and then placed the artist and instruments on a studio (i assume noise-proof'ed) and a massive spehrical speaker array where they fired the "reverb impulse" while the rtist played to simulate the acoustics vis a DSP
 
First 3 programs of 14 i think(Hi-res audio on BDs) sounded OK, but the rest sounded like a studio recording dry + bathroom effect added ina typical audio editing tool liek audacity or nero wave editor.... sent then straight to windows trash and kept my CD boxset recorded in 1999-2002 by austrian albel Capriccio Christiane shcornesheim, far better sound

The better the headphone, the more ruthlessly it will reveal such recordings with "faked" acoustics.
 
I would try to record in those rooms - on period instruments or their replicas, with the musicians well versed in playing such music and instruments. The problem may well be obtaining permission to do so - so Naxos did what they thought to be the second best option. 

 

[gerelmx1986]

The better the headphone, the more ruthlessly it will reveal such recordings with "faked" acoustics.
 
I would try to record in those rooms - on period instruments or their replicas, with the musicians well versed in playing such music and instruments. The problem may well be obtaining permission to do so - so Naxos did what they thought to be the second best option. 

Oh thnx, better to keep the Austrian made CDs and don't be mislead by naxos and Hi-res audio Blurays
 
Our ears are our best judges to decide which record/heaphones/Sources/amps keep, so if a $360 sony IEM (XBA-A3) could reveal such faked acoustics.... i wonder how unforgiving a shure stat can be

 ... yeah a 16/44.1 won over a 24/96 HAHAHA Strange for naxo their recordings i have are very good for a budget label this time they lived up to their name... Budget Label... hope they don¿t go bad as Brilliant Classics who started very good in early 2000's and now they'rent so good
 
Edit: I've found a review on why naxos "Faked it"

 How this is accomplished is the real story behind what makes The Virtual Haydn quite unique in the world of Classical recordings. The palaces, homes, and music halls that were once in secluded areas during Haydn's time are now in heavily trafficked areas where noise impedes the recording process -- in other words, they are absolutely no good for making a quality acoustic recording. Wieslaw Woszczyk, a professor of Sound Recording at McGill University approached Beghin with the idea of using virtual acoustics. They would sample the acoustics of the actual rooms and use highly sophisticated equipment in the sound laboratory to reconstruct the sound space of those rooms during the recording process to place the instruments in the various acoustic spaces.

Yeah, its a bit of the problem the austrian recorded one has, some street noise (muffled tho) from the street adjacent, but it is bearable at least for me, they could just close the streets like when a fil studios do to fil a scene for a movie. f.e. like james bond they close zocalo square in mexico city for a few days instead of trying to fake it, even the reviewer said so that sounded quite a bit unnatural at times, the delay was a bit too long and "wet" in small rooms supposed to be intimate.
 
The fragment of the review was taken from amazon product page
 
Back on topic I wanna give a shot to the shures or a stat phone and see how my recordings sound on these phones

 

[goodvibes]

I spoke to a recording engineer today that heard it at AES and said it's in a different league from other inears and he's familiar with top customs.