[AndrewG]

I am looking at Music Hall turntables on TTVJ,

I am considering either the MMF-5.1 - $699, the MMF-5 SE - $895 or the MMF-7 which is a little over 1K... I will be combining with the XCanV3, Bellari phonostage 129, and Sennheisers.

Just wondering which of the three is the best value, and will sound the best.
I am upgrading from the MMF2.1 which I sold off. I want a turntable that will last, and one that I won't want to replace any time soon. In fact if the MMF-9 is that much better than the rest I would save up for a few months longer and get that, but I have a feeling it might not be that much better combined with my other gear.

Here is the link to view these TT's:

Turntables : TTVJ, Todd The Vinyl Junkie

Would appreciate some opinions!

 

[AndrewG]

anyone have experience with the MMF7 or 9??

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewG /img/forum/go_quote.gif anyone have experience with the MMF7 or 9??

There is no substitute for listening but the MMF-9 is substantially heavier than the MMF-7 and good turntables are never light.In a new turntable,I would tend to go with a Technics 1200/1210 MK2 and install a Rega 250 or a more expensive Origin Live tonearm on it.The Technics decks will still be running long after the light budget belt drive decks get tossed into the landfill.The user friendliness of the Technics decks is also very addictive once you get use to them.Its hard to go back to a belt drive once you are hooked.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewG /img/forum/go_quote.gif anyone have experience with the MMF7 or 9??

If you're willing to spend the best part of 2 grand then I would definitely go and listen before you buy if that's possible.
Music Hall decks are made by Pro-ject in Czechia who are better known for their cheaper decks than more high end ones so given this is being imported from Europe and the US dollar is weak against the Euro you may get better value for money buying something American like a Sota or VPI in this kind of pricerange.
Upgrading a Technics with an Origin Live tonearm like ssportclay says would also offer good value.

 

[selfdivider]

I don't know what kind of music listen to, but if you can, also check out the Rega P3-24 with the new RB301 arm. I think the general consensus is that the more expensive P5 will die an eventual death b/c of P3's excellence... a great value.

 

[HiFi FOR METAL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewG /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am looking at Music Hall turntables on TTVJ, I am considering either the MMF-5.1 - $699, the MMF-5 SE - $895 or the MMF-7 which is a little over 1K... I will be combining with the XCanV3, Bellari phonostage 129, and Sennheisers. Just wondering which of the three is the best value, and will sound the best. I am upgrading from the MMF2.1 which I sold off. I want a turntable that will last, and one that I won't want to replace any time soon. In fact if the MMF-9 is that much better than the rest I would save up for a few months longer and get that, but I have a feeling it might not be that much better combined with my other gear. Here is the link to view these TT's: Turntables : TTVJ, Todd The Vinyl Junkie Would appreciate some opinions!

I think that all of these tables deserve a superlative phonostage, the bellari is great and would most likely be pretty good with an MMF-5.1, but the others deserve a phonostage like a Graham Amp 2 with PSU1 upgrade. Also the MMF-9.1 does have a tripple plinth with very good isolation, but you may also want to look at Pro-Ject tables, and Sheu analog as well. They are also in that price range. Sheu actually makes parts for many of the high end German decks and decided to make their own after offering kits. Also SSportclay, is right Technics tables have a very stable direct drive motor with very little wow and flutter. However, they are mounted to the plinth and platter, and don't have acrylic platters. What they do have is a lot of vibrational noise transfer because of this. so using a belt drive is usually better to minimize this type of vibrational distortion. The best solution for controlling voltage variation on a belt drive is something like the Speed Box by project. You also will probably need to figure out what kind of cartridge you want, because low output moving coil carts. like the ones on the MMF-9.1 are very hard to amplify correctly without noise. To do this you need an expensive phonostage especially one that won't have any grounding and noise floor issues given the gain requirements of the low output cartridges. I advise using either a higher level MM cart, one of the grado moving Iron carts that are wide bandwidth and high output, or a nice high output moving coil like a Sumiko blue point special or Blackbird. There are a lot of options out there, so it really depends on how far you really want to go with all of this.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFi FOR METAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think that all of these tables deserve a superlative phonostage, the bellari is great and would most likely be pretty good with an MMF-5.1, but the others deserve a phonostage like a Graham Amp 2 with PSU1 upgrade. .

It's best to allocate the lions share of you budget to the turntable itself then the tonearm if it doesn't come with one, then the cart and lastly the phonostage in order to maximise the sound quality. In other words it's not worth buying a lesser turntable so you can afford a better phonostage as it can only work with what the source is feeding it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFi FOR METAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif Technics tables have a very stable direct drive motor with very little wow and flutter. However, they are mounted to the plinth and platter, and don't have acrylic platters. What they do have is a lot of vibrational noise transfer because of this. so using a belt drive is usually better to minimize this type of vibrational distortion.

The main issue with the Technics is that it is designed to sit on a solid high mass support like a solid wall shelf or rack on a concrete floor which incidently is almost as true of modern turntables like the Music Hall / Pro-Ject which have minimal isolation from vibration transferred from the surface they are placed on. Acrylic platters won't help much in this regard unless the foundations are stable. Properly situated the Technics is as quiet as any belt drive table in this price bracket.

 

[HiFi FOR METAL]

I guess what I am hinting at is more synergy than anything. I am quite familiar with all of those tables, I also know that as far as isolation from mechanical noise the Technics is not even in the same league. That is why so many of the direct drive o'philes mod them to help with this, but I know for a fact that any Technics cannot really compete with other turntables for the same money that are belt driven, and if you add an origin live tonearm you are talking about some serious money right there. I actually only use those tone arms on my Nottingham tables because that is what they deserve. Again I would look at cartridge arm synergy then look at cartridge phonostage synergy, He mentioned that he had a bellari, which, for the money is a wonderful phonostage, but A. cannot do Low Output MC, and B. can be beaten with a stick for about 150$ more. Some of the things I mentioned can be done in stages so you can improve your system as you go along. Also I do believe using an acrylic platter helps a great deal. basically it is a vibrationally neutral piece because it is the same resonant frequency as vinyl itself. I would look at some of the other brands out there and their price points to see which one fits your needs the best.

 

[HiGHFLYiN9]

I was recently trying to decide between the MMF 5.1 and the Pro-ject Xpression and after a lot of research and chitchatting with the dealer I went with the Xpression, mostly because the carbon fiber tonearm. It's supposed to be a nice improvement over the standard Pro-ject tonearms. I'm also running it with the Bellari, it's a nice sounding combo.

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFi FOR METAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess what I am hinting at is more synergy than anything. I am quite familiar with all of those tables, I also know that as far as isolation from mechanical noise the Technics is not even in the same league. That is why so many of the direct drive o'philes mod them to help with this, but I know for a fact that any Technics cannot really compete with other turntables for the same money that are belt driven, and if you add an origin live tonearm you are talking about some serious money right there. I actually only use those tone arms on my Nottingham tables because that is what they deserve. Again I would look at cartridge arm synergy then look at cartridge phonostage synergy, He mentioned that he had a bellari, which, for the money is a wonderful phonostage, but A. cannot do Low Output MC, and B. can be beaten with a stick for about 150$ more. Some of the things I mentioned can be done in stages so you can improve your system as you go along. Also I do believe using an acrylic platter helps a great deal. basically it is a vibrationally neutral piece because it is the same resonant frequency as vinyl itself. I would look at some of the other brands out there and their price points to see which one fits your needs the best.

Noise is not an issue with a Technics 1200.You can't even hear it run.Noise is more of an issue with the various rim drives.The main solution with those is to try and quiet the motor and glass bed,(epoxy)them into a 100 pound plinth.Belt drive turntables have the theoretical advantage of added isolation between the belt and the motor.The motor in the belt drive system also has the disadvantage of having less control of the platter.This is why the rim drive people regard belt drive turntables as snoozers.In other words,the rim drive people are willing to put up with a little more noise to gain more drive,excitement, and dynamic slam.How quiet is quiet enough ?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFi FOR METAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am quite familiar with all of those tables, I also know that as far as isolation from mechanical noise the Technics is not even in the same league. That is why so many of the direct drive o'philes mod them to help with this, but I know for a fact that any Technics cannot really compete with other turntables for the same money that are belt driven, and if you add an origin live tonearm you are talking about some serious money right there.

That's just your opinion which many prominent turntable engineers like Mark Baker of Origin Live for one would completely diagree with. If you have ever been near a Technics 1200 you'd know that it's far better built than the vast majority of todays sub 2000USD turntables and it's performance is mainly restricted by it's old fashioned tonearm.

I know of no mods to the Technics which would in any way alter the fact that the drive is directly coupled to the spindle, this is just the nature of direct drive. However there are many well reviewed mods to the tonearm from OL and now Soundsupports who offer SME mounts, to the supports from Isonoe, to the PSU from KABUSA and to the platter from Sound Dead Steel.

This level of support and upgrade potential make the SL1200 one of the biggest turntable bargains going and to say it's inferior simply because of the fact it's direct drive is just plainly untrue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFi FOR METAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also I do believe using an acrylic platter helps a great deal. basically it is a vibrationally neutral piece because it is the same resonant frequency as vinyl itself.

Yes many turntables use acrylic these days and many others like Rega, Linn, Roksan etc still use more traditional materials like glass and steel. Michell use acrylic but mixed with vinyl. If you want a support that has exactly the same resonant frequency as then look no further than the Funk Firm Acromat which is just made of vinyl.

 

[HiFi FOR METAL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's just your opinion which many prominent turntable engineers like Mark Baker of Origin Live for one would completely diagree with. If you have ever been near a Technics 1200 you'd know that it's far better built than the vast majority of todays sub 2000USD turntables and it's performance is mainly restricted by it's old fashioned tonearm.

Except for the fact that Origin Live actually makes turntables that are nothing like a Technics in construction quality, many of which are belt driven. I think there are several turntables in the sub 2000$ category which are great. Although I think most of the Thorens & Rega tables are ok, but not amazing, the best thing on a Rega is their arms, Sheu, Pro-ject, Music Hall, Origin Live, Clear audio, Nottingham and several others are making far better tables in this category. I think putting an orgin live on a technics really is only for DJs wanting the best sound, Technics do make the best tables for DJs but that is because a belt drive would get destroyed when being used for scratching and mixing. but for refined playback it is less than ideal. I mean a dual or tiple plinth design will have resounding effects when used to isolate vibration and resonance which is the main issue with aluminum, and glass. This is why many tables are made out of MDF or acrylic.

By the way HiGHFLYiN9 the expression III(great table for the price) and bellari are a really good combo. The bellari has excellent highs and is great when you can use it as a preamp that phonostage cannot really be beat in the features/ performance to price ratio. Although on just a pure performance level there are some better phonostages as you double in price so it is good that there is also an upgrade path with that type of table as well.

 

[ssportclay]

Teres has dropped all of their belt drive models from their line in favor of direct drive and rim drive models due to the the platter control problems of belt drive designs.Belt drive turntables will seemingly sound flawless and apparently do nothing wrong until compared directly against the newer Teres drive systems.It is true that what you can't hear cannot hurt you but the Teres people are now saying that their newer drive systems perform beyond the capability of any belt drive system.I have never heard a Teres turntable myself but I do own and use an upgraded Technics 1200 MK2.From my own personal experience with this unit and other models,I have little doubt in what the Teres people are saying.The only real proof is to actually compare different turntables in the same system and the only way to really judge the merits of an upgraded Technics 1200 is to actually hear one.

 

[jsaliga]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay /img/forum/go_quote.gif Teres has dropped all of their belt drive models from their line in favor of direct drive and rim drive models due to the the platter control problems of belt drive designs.

You might actually be on to something when Linn, Rega, Clearaudio, Sota, SME, VPI, Thorens, and J.A. Mitchell abandon belt drive in favor of direct drive. So citing what the people atTeres are saying as evidence to support your argument is sheer fallacy because the conclusions you are drawing do NOT logically flow from the facts. You can believe it all you want, just don't expect everyone else to check their capacity to reason at the door.

There are really great belt drive and direct drive decks out there. You have said that yourself countless dozens of times, so why you keep trying to "prove" that direct drive is better really eludes me. The choice of drive system is far less important than the quality of the implementation.

--Jerome

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif You might actually be on to something when Linn, Rega, Clearaudio, Sota, SME, VPI, Thorens, and J.A. Mitchell abandon belt drive in favor of direct drive. So citing what the people atTeres are saying as evidence to support your argument is sheer fallacy because the conclusions you are drawing do NOT logically flow from the facts. You can believe it all you want, just don't expect everyone else to check their capacity to reason at the door. There are really great belt drive and direct drive decks out there. You have said that yourself countless dozens of times, so why you keep trying to "prove" that direct drive is better really eludes me. The choice of drive system is far less important than the quality of the implementation. --Jerome

It is unlikely that all of these companies will switch over to direct drive or rim drive systems very soon because belt drive tables remain the least expensive to manufacture.VPI is the one exception because they do have a new rim drive out although no plans have been announced that their belt drive turntables are being dropped like the Teres company.The point of my last post was to show that the belt drive system should not be assumed to be highly superior to the other drive systems and the only serious candidate for quality music reproduction and that the direct drive Technics 1200 should also be considered.It is not a 2nd rate DJ machine suitable only for people unwilling to pay the money for an over priced belt drive turntable as many seem to believe.I have no personal problem with belt drive turntables but they do have some disadvantage issues which people seem to like to ignore.I really don't predict much change in the turntable business in the near future mainly due to the dominance of digital formats.