Should I get the MMF-5 or MM-7 turntable (or MMF9?)

[jsaliga]

My ony real point, and it's one that is frequently lost in discussions such as these, is that the drive system is much less important than the quality of the implementation. A belt drive system poorly implemented will not sound as good as well implemented direct drive table. And a poorly implemented direct drive system cannot compete with a well implemented belt driven table.

I don't have a problem with your clear preference for direct drive or the Technics. We're all entitled to our opinions after all. But you do seem to wear your preferences on your sleeve. Do you really feel that belt drive tables are over priced relative to the Technics 1200, and do you honestly believe the drive system alone acounts for the price differences?

I'm just trying to understand why you care so much about what other people think of the gear you are using. I have a Rega P7, and there are plenty of people here who don't much like Rega. Some of whom I have a lot of respect for. But they don't have to live with my choice. I do, and I don't require their approval in order to validate my choice. Frankly, my experience has taught me that some of the "conventional wisdom" being bandied about on this forum just isn't true. I can't tell you about all of the words of caution that I was given about buying a Rega and mounting it atop my Salamander Designs Archetype stand. It truely sounds divine.

--Jerome

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif My ony real point, and it's one that is frequently lost in discussions such as these, is that the drive system is much less important than the quality of the implementation. A belt drive system poorly implemented will not sound as good as well implemented direct drive table. And a poorly implemented direct drive system cannot compete with a well implemented belt driven table. I don't have a problem with your clear preference for direct drive or the Technics. We're all entitled to our opinions after all. But you do seem to wear your preferences on your sleeve. Do you really feel that belt drive tables are over priced relative to the Technics 1200, and do you honestly believe the drive system alone acounts for the price differences? I'm just trying to understand why you care so much about what other people think of the gear you are using. I have a Rega P7, and there are plenty of people here who don't much like Rega. Some of whom I have a lot of respect for. But they don't have to live with my choice. I do. And to be honest, my experience has taught me that some of the "conventional wisdom" being bandied about on this forum just isn't true. I can't tell you about all of the words of caution that I was given about buying a Rega and mounting it atop my Salamander Designs Archetype stand. It truely sounds divine. --Jerome

I really don't care what other people think of my gear but you can get a new Technics 1200mk2 for $375 and many people are looking to get into vinyl for the first time and need some direction.Technics sells so many of these that they don't need to make as much money per unit as the cottage belt drive manufacturers.Its the best deal going in a new high quality turntable.I have actually played more recordings on a belt drive turntable in my life and I actually own more rim drive tables than any other kind.I do use my upgraded Technics 1200MK2 the most at present but this could change over time.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFi FOR METAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif Except for the fact that Origin Live actually makes turntables that are nothing like a Technics in construction quality, many of which are belt driven.

I think all of OL's own tables are belt driven but that is beside the point, they were the first "audiophile" company to acknowlegde that the SL-1200 is a fine motorboard hamstung by a mediocre tonearm and offer upgrades for it. They also offer cost effective upgrades for other stalwarts such as the Linn LP12 and Rega RB250 and it was in these kind of products that their business was founded. OL's own decks are well designed and are equally as well constructed as the Technics but they do cost nearly 4 x as much in todays boutique market which was my original point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFi FOR METAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think there are several turntables in the sub 2000$ category which are great. Although I think most of the Thorens & Rega tables are ok, but not amazing, the best thing on a Rega is their arms, Sheu, Pro-ject, Music Hall, Origin Live, Clear audio, Nottingham and several others are making far better tables in this category.

I would agree with a lot of this. Sadly Thorens entry level tables today are just low rent rebadged Dual CS-514's or similar which really belong in the same pricebracket as the basic AT, Denon or Technics belt drives you see on Amazon. Most of the other marques you mention sound better than the Technics straight out of the box purely by virtue of coming fitted with a Rega RB250/300 tonearm. Seeing as how you can buy both a Rega arm and an SL1200 for almost the cost of a Rega P3 these days never mind anything as exotic as Nottingham, Clearaudio or Scheu, then surely this represents excellent value for money.


Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFi FOR METAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think putting an orgin live on a technics really is only for DJs wanting the best sound, Technics do make the best tables for DJs but that is because a belt drive would get destroyed when being used for scratching and mixing. but for refined playback it is less than ideal.

I think you don't know what your're talking about here

. Read about the history of the SL1200 and you'll quickly see it was never desinged as a DJ table because back in the 1970s that concept didn't yet exist outside of Radio. The 1200 is a midmarket Hi-fi table that has remained in production almost unchanged for 30+ years because at some point in the 1980s it was adopted by the fledgling Hip Hop community and became as totemic as an electric guitar was a few generations previously.
The fact is that Technics also offered the 120 as a motorboard usually fitted with an SME tonearm for the more discerning who aspired to a SP10 but couln't afford one.
All OL have done is re-instate this as an option. Of course they market their upgrade to DJ's as DJ's or aspiring DJ's buy more records than anyone else. It always amuses me when so called "audiophiles" denigrate things as being merely for "DJs" as though they were some sort of subspecies. What shortsighted stupidity. If it weren't for mere "DJ's" and their geneuine love of music and refusal to accept anything less than vinyl the format would have perished long ago...

 

[HiFi FOR METAL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you don't know what your're talking about here . Read about the history of the SL1200 and you'll quickly see it was never desinged as a DJ table because back in the 1970s that concept didn't yet exist outside of Radio. The 1200 is a midmarket Hi-fi table that has remained in production almost unchanged for 30+ years because at some point in the 1980s it was adopted by the fledgling Hip Hop community and became as totemic as an electric guitar was a few generations previously. The fact is that Technics also offered the 120 as a motorboard usually fitted with an SME tonearm for the more discerning who aspired to a SP10 but couln't afford one. All OL have done is re-instate this as an option. Of course they market their upgrade to DJ's as DJ's or aspiring DJ's buy more records than anyone else. It always amuses me when so called "audiophiles" denigrate things as being merely for "DJs" as though they were some sort of subspecies. What shortsighted stupidity. If it weren't for mere "DJ's" and their geneuine love of music and refusal to accept anything less than vinyl the format would have perished long ago...

I still think you have an issue with vibration in a Technics. It cannot be avoided in any way shape or form when you are not decoupling the platter and arm from the chassis and motor. I think you would have to go the Teres route to actually get good DD performance. This is in some ways why I like tables such as the MMF-9.1 I really like how quiet a 2-3 plinth design works at destroying vibrational noise, and since the MMF-9.1 is kind of like a Pro-Ject RM 9.1 in motor, arm, and Platter construction it is a great table to say the least. It should be similar since Pro-Ject makes them. But not to be out done Sheu have some arms, plinths, and motors from tables like, Amazon, Clear audio, and Rega. They have some amazing tables in the 2000$ and up category that in many ways are category killers. Plus the distributor will even upgrade the table to operate in DC off of a batter so you don't get voltage fluctuation.

Technics were considered really great like 20 years ago because most of the boutique manufacturers didn't exist, Vinyl has grown by leaps and bounds technologically and so most of the previous designs and the old wisdom about how vinyl should work went out the window. How many multi Plinth designs were there back then, how many acryllic platters, ceramic bearing motors, carbon fiber arms? All of these things improve performance a great deal and haven't really been around all that long, Technics tables have basically been the same for 25 years and now look very dated in the performance category.

 

[robm321]

My first high end TT was the MMF-7. I really liked it for the price and would recommend it.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFi FOR METAL /img/forum/go_quote.gif Technics were considered really great like 20 years ago because most of the boutique manufacturers didn't exist, Vinyl has grown by leaps and bounds technologically and so most of the previous designs and the old wisdom about how vinyl should work went out the window. How many multi Plinth designs were there back then, how many acryllic platters, ceramic bearing motors, carbon fiber arms? All of these things improve performance a great deal and haven't really been around all that long, Technics tables have basically been the same for 25 years and now look very dated in the performance category.

Fiddlesticks

. Of course there were small scale manufacturers back then, it's only recently that they have started charging "boutique" prices and this has everything to do with economies of scale and the death of vinyl as a mass medium and absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with quantum leaps made in vinyl playback technology.

Arguably the greatest recent watershed in tonearm design was Rega's RB300 tonearm and SME Series V both early / mid 1980s, both low volume specialist manufacturers.

Exoskeletal belt drives made of exotic tranlucent materials? Ever hear of Transcriptors? who won a Queens Award For Industry for doing exactly that in the mid '60s and was featured as Alex's deck in the film version of A Clockwork Orange?
Or John Michell who actually started off doing OEM stuff for both David Gammon and Stanley Kubrik.

Most of the exotic materials you mention were actually pioneered in Japanese direct drives in the early 1980s. Trio / Kenwood's seminal L-07D featured a composite plinth of layered wood and pulverised stone, a ceramic platter and a carbon fibre tonearm, as did Sony's PS-X70.

The fact is that these are some of the finest turntables ever made and in engineering terms comparable today only to astronically expensive machines like the 73,000 USD Rockport Sirius.

The SL1200 MKII cost around 250 UKP in the early 1980s when the Linn LP12 cost 350 without arm. Today the exact same Technics costs 330UKP whereas the LP12 is now just over 1000UKP and they don't even give you a power supply any more either. Technics SL1200 sold in millions to aspiring DJ's allowing it to beat inflation, but this doesn't in any way detract from the quality of the product.

Yes the 1200 is not the last word in turntables. It was never designed to be. Yes the tonearm is dated and can improved upon massively by a more modern design and with a few other tweaks it can easily compete with any of the decks you've mentioned and better them many respects.

As I mentioned previously concerning multilayered sandwich construction plinths with no suspension, whether it be the Trio L-07D or the top of the range Music Hall / Pro-Ject, necessiate very careful placement on a solid floor. There is nothing revolutionary about this. They rely on mass and modular construction to absorb vibration. Put either on a standard table on a wooden suspended floor and they will perform terribly.

There is another school of thought espoused by Linn, Thorens, Michell and others which is almost diametrically opposed. This basically says that all materials have a sound and in order to get music from them you have to carefully tune them and place them on a light, yet highly rigid, surface otherwise you'll suck all the life out the music.

Both schools admit the importance of plinth design, in fact it was Linn who were the first to put forward the idea that a turntable (motorboard / plinth) and support has any sound per se.
I don't think either approach is perfect. Good design is good design but there does seem to be a trend these days towards more minimalist plinths which I personally put down largley to cost cutting more than any other factor.

 

[lini]

I really wonder why people argue so much over drive types and arm designs, while there's comparatively little discussion on cartridges. To my ears, cartridges make much more of a difference...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lini /img/forum/go_quote.gif I really wonder why people argue so much over drive types and arm designs, while there's comparatively little discussion on cartridges. To my ears, cartridges make much more of a difference...

On the contrary I think most people ascribe far too much influence to the cartridge without understanding that it can only work as well as the turntable and tonearm allow.

From reading your other threads I know you don't think it worth putting an exotic cart on a cheap turntable which is exactly my point.

In the same way few turntables under 1000USD today are worth putting a better tonearm on, either because they have the best worthwhile one already like the Rega, or just because the motorboard isn't upto it much.

This lack of understanding of how to get the best from a turntable set-up and in what order the components of it will influence the sound is the main reason why people ignore the Technics SL1200 as far as I can see.

 

[Manny Calavera]

memepool : question..

I just got in on a great deal for a Michell TecnoDec with modified Rega RB250,and have 300 left over for a cart,any suggestions ?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny Calavera /img/forum/go_quote.gif Michell TecnoDec with modified Rega RB250,and have 300 left over for a cart,any suggestions ?

The Dynavector 10x would be one the best budget MC carts but it might stretch your budget a bit. If you have a phonostage which can deal with a low output MC then the Audio Technica OC9 is a bit of a bargain or the Sumiko Blue Points. Of these the Dynavector has the lushest sound which I think is a good thing on the basic Rega 250.

Or elese you should maybe just keep it simple and go for a more user friendly MM cart. The Goldring 1006/1022GX work really well on the Rega arms. The new Ortofon 2M series are probably better value for money in North America though and have really upped the ante with MM carts recently, in the value for money stakes.

Curious that you're ditching your existing Pro-Ject 9.1 though? the Tecnodek is lovely but it's actually cheaper than that Pro-Ject over here (UK) which is about the same as a Gyro SE.
Tecnodek is a faster more exiting listen though in my book. It is very sensitive to set up so make sure you have it on a proper turntable wall shelf or spiked table if on a concrete floor as this will have a much bigger impact on the sound than a few hundred dollars difference in carts.

 

[Manny Calavera]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Dynavector 10x would be one the best budget MC carts but it might stretch your budget a bit. If you have a phonostage which can deal with a low output MC then the Audio Technica OC9 is a bit of a bargain or the Sumiko Blue Points. Of these the Dynavector has the lushest sound which I think is a good thing on the basic Rega 250. Or elese you should maybe just keep it simple and go for a more user friendly MM cart. The Goldring 1006/1022GX work really well on the Rega arms. The new Ortofon 2M series are probably better value for money in North America though and have really upped the ante with MM carts recently, in the value for money stakes. Curious that you're ditching your existing Pro-Ject 9.1 though? the Tecnodek is lovely but it's actually cheaper than that Pro-Ject over here (UK) which is about the same as a Gyro SE. Tecnodek is a faster more exiting listen though in my book. It is very sensitive to set up so make sure you have it on a proper turntable wall shelf or spiked table if on a concrete floor as this will have a much bigger impact on the sound than a few hundred dollars difference in carts.

Hi,

Thanks for the info,you really seem to be well versed in TT's and thier history etc.

I have no plans to sell the 9.1 its only on loan to my father.We are using a
pro-ject Ground it deluxe 1 as a base.,with that sitting on top of a large polished piece of marble I bought many years ago at a local garage sale.

Nothing fancy,but it works well.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny Calavera /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the info,you really seem to be well versed in TT's and thier history etc. .

A bit obsessed maybe

I have always been fascinated by them since childhood and it never ceases to amaze me that whatever newer technology may come and go something this simple can produce such breathtaking fidelity.