[JohnZS]

B-b-b-but the customer is being a Karen from my point of view, therefore he's cancelled.

- some random guy on the internet

LOL, at least my firearm handling safety is way better than hers. She was brave so at least her family didn't become the victims and no one was hurt.
I don't think they lack money either since their job and where they live.
That aside, I'm glad you are bringing some humor into this conversation. Love it.

 

[zenworm]

I'm not above reading some internet drama but as someone who is pretty new to [posting on] headfi, I would appreciate if the conversation stayed away from the back and forth personal jabs, trolls or not. I find the discussion of the original post, Woo's response (or lack thereof in the beginning), and the technical questions around the cables way more valuable.

 

[JohnZS]

I'm not above reading some internet drama but as someone who is pretty new to [posting on] headfi, I would appreciate if the conversation stayed away from the back and forth personal jabs, trolls or not. I find the discussion of the original post, Woo's response (or lack thereof in the beginning), and the technical questions around the cables way more valuable.

Thanks for expressing your opinion.

It is an unfortunate event that there was a little fight initiated by only one person, on an otherwise truthful and objective thread.

I think the only person who started the personal attack is the person who then suddenly stopped replying and liked your post.
I wonder why everyone got mad at him and he is suddenly not posting after he stated he will double his posts.

BTW if you are really interested in the technical aspect of this incident, WA11's thread is a good place to have a conversation with others regarding that. As the technical aspect is only a secondary focus in this thread. Important? Yes, definitely.

 

[zenworm]

BTW if you are really interested in the technical aspect of this incident, WA11's thread is a good place to have a conversation with others regarding that. As the technical aspect is only a secondary focus in this thread. Important? Yes, definitely.

Fair enough. I hope this thread doesn't get closed and continues to be an open dialog for anyone who has problems with WA. This kind of transparency is important. I've been saving up for a WA33 and I've pretty much decided to spend my dollars elsewhere after the last email exchange. They could change my mind but at this point I'm not sure that's going to happen.

 

[ClieOS]

With all these fuzz I actually went to JEITA (Japan Electronics and Information Technology Association) to read about the JEITA standard RC-8141C (English version, and I read the Japanese version as well to confirm they are same in content) which Pentacomm said their 4.4mm plug is based on - well, there is nothing in the RC-8141C standard that define how to wire a balanced headphone. There is only single-ended configuration in there...

 

[JohnZS]

With all these fuzz I actually went to JEITA (Japan Electronics and Information Technology Association) to read about the JEITA standard RC-8141C (English version, and I read the Japanese version as well to confirm they are same in content) which Pentacomm said their 4.4mm plug is based on - well, there is nothing in the RC-8141C standard that define how to wire a balanced headphone. There is only single-ended configuration in there...

Wow, Thanks! That is some good info.

I'm not related to the electrical field at all, so please correct me if I read it wrong.

Are you basically saying that Pentaconn doesn't even have a standard on how the balanced system should be wired?

 

[KPzypher]

For a family ran boutique company like Woo Audio, I would put customer service above all else. As Jack stated, audio circle is very small and words spread fast and furious. What goes around comes around, and with interest.

I love below comment from Woo Audio in response to the OP.

"I think we have gone far and beyond..... and interacting to a real person is becoming rare these days. Apple would even charge a fee for customers to talk to a real person if the product warranty has expired."

Unimpressive!!!
First of all, it is for the customer to judge and decide how far you've gone as a company. Second of all, you guys are not Apple. You can't compare the calls you get as a family ran business to a fortune 500 company. No matter who's at fault, the caliber of above dialogue reveals Woo Audio's lack of education & support in customer service. It's obviously not their forte, nor their priority. I suggest they spend a good portion of their revenue in employee/employer education and training.

In contrast, here's what top-notch customer service looks like.
Below is my personal experience and interaction with another boutique company (ZMF), with regard to a far more expensive product.
*** not trying to advertise their products***

For context, after I received one of their products, noticed some blemish. When I reached out to ZMF with the issue, the company offered two solutions. one, return for repair. Or two, they offered to send a replacement part for me to work-on myself, and asked me to return the part in question once replaced. When I asked the company if they can instead replace the entire unit based on my own reasoning, the owner (Zach) replied with the following.

Hey Yxxxx-

OK we will take care of you!

Yes let's just get you a new set - it sounds like you're unhappy with this one. I have attached a return label, and we will put you on top of the list in the current batch being produced.

This happened with no further questions asked. This is what I call a customer service.

Companies sometimes forget making good product is only half the battle. It's difficult for small companies to grow without loyal and returning customers. Sadly, to a great extent, reputation and word of mouth goes far beyond any engineering prowess in this industry, as subjectivism and preferential interest/bias plays a primary role in gauging performance.

I believe the significance of this thread goes far beyond a broken unit and one customer's dissatisfaction/grievances.
With haste, Woo Audio should think long and hard on their "RENEWED" customer retention strategies.
For the rest of us, I hope this incident can raise awareness and force businesses to think ways to be more customer-centric.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

For a family ran boutique company like Woo Audio, I would put customer service above all else. As Jack stated, audio circle is very small and words spread fast and furious. What goes around comes around, and with interest.

I love below comment from Woo Audio in response to the OP.

"I think we have gone far and beyond..... and interacting to a real person is becoming rare these days. Apple would even charge a fee for customers to talk to a real person if the product warranty has expired."

Unimpressive!!!
First of all, it is for the customer to judge and decide how far you've gone as a company. Second of all, you guys are not Apple. You can't compare the calls you get as a family ran business to a fortune 500 company. No matter who's at fault, the caliber of above dialogue reveals Woo Audio's lack of education & support in customer service. It's obviously not their forte, nor their priority. I suggest they spend a good portion of their revenue in employee/employer education and training.

In contrast, here's what top-notch customer service looks like.
Below is my personal experience and interaction with another boutique company (ZMF), with regard to a far more expensive product.
*** not trying to advertise their products***

For context, after I received one of their products, noticed some blemish. When I reached out to ZMF with the issue, the company offered two solutions. one, return for repair. Or two, they offered to send a replacement part for me to work-on myself, and asked me to return the part in question once replaced. When I asked the company if they can instead replace the entire unit based on my own reasoning, the owner (Zach) replied with the following.

Hey Yxxxx-

OK we will take care of you!

Yes let's just get you a new set - it sounds like you're unhappy with this one. I have attached a return label, and we will put you on top of the list in the current batch being produced.

This happened with no further questions asked. This is what I call a customer service.

Companies sometimes forget making good product is only half the battle. It's difficult for small companies to grow without loyal and returning customers. Sadly, to a great extent, reputation and word of mouth goes far beyond any engineering prowess in this industry, as subjectivism and preferential interest/bias plays a primary role in gauging performance.

I believe the significance of this thread goes far beyond a broken unit and one customer's dissatisfaction/grievances.
With haste, Woo Audio should think long and hard on their "RENEWED" customer retention strategies.
For the rest of us, I hope this incident can raise awareness and force businesses to think ways to be more customer-centric.

Fantastic post! ZMF is simply top-notch. Both Zach and Bevin are simply a joy to deal with. Zach makes a stunningly gorgeous headphone, and his craftsmanship is only topped by his excellent communication and customer service.

 

[ra990]

Here's a simple, text-book, script for WA to follow to end this fiasco:

1. Recognize customer's grievance and the amount of frustration caused
2. Apologize about your lack of a properly trained customer service department
3. Rectify the situation by properly training your support team about diagnosing your products
4. Done, it's that easy...

 

[seamon]

~Snip~

 

[jeffri]

The thread has run through 17 pages and yet not much of progress is going on. If Woo Audio really value their community, they should be here actively engaging in communication with all of us.

 

[smallcaps]

Unfortunately the retail and customer experience landscape is rapidly changing, and companies that do not adapt will find themselves out of business. A bespoke and highly specialized producer such as Woo only has their subjective reputation to rely on, as views of their products will always fail against objectivist perspectives.

Companies like Woo need to understand that amps are not the product, the experience of the Woo lifestyle is. It's the same reason someone buys a Patek Philippe over a Timex. Not because it tells time better, but because the brand promise and perception conveys an appealing lifestyle experience for their customer. Once this appeal is shattered, then the product is laid bare, subject to scrutiny against competing products that either perform better, or convey the brand promise (luxury lifestyle products) in a more appealing fashion.

In my line of work, I deal with companies much like Woo all the time: stuck in an old-world way of thinking about products and services, with a need to transform their brand experience or face obsolescence. The treatment of customer relations and brand experience will be pivotal to their success, and if they are unable to have a good service strategy to recover from this, they will fail. I've seen it literally hundreds of times now with all manner of organisations.

Simply put, it doesn't matter who's wrong or right. In a capitalist system, money flows in just as easily as it will flow out, and having brand allegiance, especially for such a specialized hobby such as ours, will make or break a company. Woo Audio, you have been warned... and trust me, I normally charge A LOT for this advice, but I love this hobby so much I'm willing to make an exception and enter this thread at my own peril.

Good luck to all parties involved and hope that everyone finds a resolution.

 

[ClieOS]

Are you basically saying that Pentaconn doesn't even have a standard on how the balanced system should be wired?

In sum, yes.

IIRC, Pentaconn 4.4mm was first introduced commercially by Sony in Q4 2016, during IFA 2016, on their Walkman series as well as their high-end headphones. As you can read from the link I posted above, JEITA standard RC-8141C has not been updated since March 2016, meaning the 4.4mm design has never made it into the published standard (*nor is any standard regarding any other balanced plug, including the much more popular 2.5mm plug that has been introduced by A&K a few years earlier) till this day.

 

[dazzerfong]

With all these fuzz I actually went to JEITA (Japan Electronics and Information Technology Association) to read about the JEITA standard RC-8141C (English version, and I read the Japanese version as well to confirm they are same in content) which Pentacomm said their 4.4mm plug is based on - well, there is nothing in the RC-8141C standard that define how to wire a balanced headphone. There is only single-ended configuration in there...

Out of curiosity, do you know where the English translation is? Can only find the Japanese one on the site.

 

[ClieOS]

Out of curiosity, do you know where the English translation is? Can only find the Japanese one on the site.

The link I gave above is the English version. The doc is not fully English so you need to use a translator to work out the detail.

P/S: may be I wasn't clear - by English version, I meant to say English version of the JEITA website. The document itself is the same between the English and Japanese version of JEITA website. It is partially written in English but most detail is in Japanese.