[Cyrilix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley No, I think it's an accurate statement. To say that the presentation is farther from your ears than a supraaural headphone is accurate. To say that there is a rolled off high treble response in some frequencies is accurate. To say that there is a moderate midbass and midrange hump is accurate. To say that they are "veiled" implies a negative connotation and begs people to defend their purchase.

Well, what are you going to do in life if you can't accept a little criticism? Think about it.

As people here say, different people, different opinions. I'm sure even Sennheiser people can accept that.

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senn20 Why does every appreciation thread have to turn into a damn pissing contest? If you don't like the headphones, fine. Don't post in that headphone's appreciation thread. For God's sake, stop crapping on people's headphones in these threads! If you don't like them, don't post! Make your own appreciation thread. *end rant*

I couldn't disagree with you more. When I was new to the boards, I was influenced by raving praise of various headphones that I later found had strengths and weaknesses. In some cases, I wish there'd been more posts showing both sides.

These threads can be misleading to members (new members in particular) if they only show one side of the coin. If the purpose of an appreciation thread is only to recognize the strengths of a headphone and none of the weaknesses or possible downsides, then what exactly is the use of those threads?

Appreciation threads where anyone who offers another opinion is attacked are lame (not that this thread is like that). Maybe appreciation threads are just lame overall...I don't know.

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrilix Well, what are you going to do in life if you can't accept a little criticism? Think about it.

I've thought about it, and decided to adopt in every interaction the same grossly condescending attitude you show here. Thanks for the help, teach!

(Did I do it right?)

It's not about "accepting criticism," it's about appropriate terminology. I can say that Grado headphones have a very zinc-ish midrange and a totally snarftacular presentation, and it tells you nothing. Veiled suggests more than either of those nonsenses, but it's still nonsense enough to confuse rather than elucidate.

 

[markot86]

I must say, NotJeffBuckley is absolutely right. As a newbie on this forum, I def. thought that the senn "veil" makes these headphones horrible. Veil is a derogatory term, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. I even remember someone saying it was so "harsh" that it was as if someone took a pair of speakers and threw a big woolen blanket over them. IMO these headphones do NOT deserve this sort of criticism at all.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula These threads can be misleading to members (new members in particular) if they only show one side of the coin. If the purpose of an appreciation thread is only to recognize the strengths of a headphone and none of the weaknesses or possible downsides, then what exactly is the use of those threads?

To share appreciation for the headphones. DOH! I mean really, next time think for just a microsecond before posting something...

Quote:

Originally Posted by markot86 I must say, NotJeffBuckley is absolutely right. As a newbie on this forum, I def. thought that the senn "veil" makes these headphones horrible. Veil is a derogatory term, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. I even remember someone saying it was so "harsh" that it was as if someone took a pair of speakers and threw a big woolen blanket over them. IMO these headphones do NOT deserve this sort of criticism at all.

To me, it comes down to ignorance. The Senns have a narrow range of mid-treble frequencies that are recessed, and for very specific/intentional reasons (part of the EQ of the headphones). People who like to completely shut off the left (logical, rational) side of the brain may end up coming to a conclusion that musical detail is being covered up, likely confusing boosted treble ala Grado with real detail/resolution. It's their problem, not the headphones'.

I first noticed that a specific range of frequencies was rolled off when I played a 20Hz-20KHz tone sweep through my HD600s. Instead of concluding they were "flawed" I set out to find out why this was the case, and ended up learning more about diffuse field equalization and other various EQs used in headphone driver design, as well as appreciating the Senns more.

 

[aerius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley To say that they are "veiled" implies a negative connotation and begs people to defend their purchase.

Let me make a correction. It begs insecure fanboys to defend & justify their purchases. It reflects more on the immaturity and thin skin of those fanboys than anything else. I feel it's stupid to couch everything I say with qualifiers and *****-foot around every potential negative issue to avoid offending feelings of fanboys. It doesn't help anyone, and just puffs up the ego of the fanboys.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm here to offer advice & opinions on headphones & gear and help others achieve a sound that they'll be happy with. Senseless praise for a piece of gear and soft-footing around the negatives isn't going to help anyone make an informed decision. In fact it just leads to disappointment, wasted money and a person who is now bitter at being mis-led by "those in the know".

I've been here for quite some time now, I've seen flame-fests on the veil, the screechy Grado highs, the CD3000 vs. Senn debates than I can count. And let me tell you, I've learned more about headphones from those heated debates than I ever will from a circle-jerk thread where no one's allowed to say anything remotely negative about the gear.

 

[Jahn]

The veil is just a short way of saying "There's something behind the curtain Dorothy, but I can't make out what it is!" That's the frustrating part - it isn't SO cut off that you don't know what you're missing (like deep bass from my wife's AT CM3 earbuds) - you can tell something awesome is there, but you can't hear it to the level that you want to.

What's frustrating to most non-Grado folks is that Grado owners never have this problem, because all Grados give what they receive at full force - and if it can't (not resolving enough, etc) well, then, you aren't missing anything dangling in front of you - it's just not there for the Grado to be able to give to you.

This is why most Grado owners and "inferior" can owners (sorry, apple ibud fans!) have no idea what a veil sounds like - it's because they've never heard it, or aren't aware of it. But once you really hear the veil, you never forget that feeling of KNOWING something else is out there, it's just...not...quite...there for you to grab!

I always use this example, but I'll do it again since it's such an extreme. J&R has a "wall of shame" where a poor HD600 is woefully underamped. The sad thing is you can TELL the can could give you more info, but it's like it's trying to say so through a mile of gauze. But take that can, put a nice cable on it, amp it right, and bingo no more veil. I heard a HD650 with silver dragons and another with a zu on there and both had no veil when going through my Pinkie, even with a modded 3960 as a source. That's not to say those cans couldn't improve even more (the senn signature is still boring to me, but that's a different complaint) but at least at that point, there was no more veil.

So most folks who have heard both Grados and Senns will tell you that both are great cans. But it's true - at a certain point, a Senn is going to have veil, and at a certain point, a (John) Grado is going to have "Grate-O": the reason why we are in this hobby is to overcome those things somehow and enjoy the music! Whether it's through modding or improving the chain or just changing your musical preferences or psychosis, it can be done if you love the base signature enough - and some other can doesn't come around and blow everything else away for you.

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch To share appreciation for the headphones. DOH! I mean really, next time think for just a microsecond before posting something...

Yes, I understand and did indeed think about that before posting. As Aerius said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm here to offer advice & opinions on headphones & gear and help others achieve a sound that they'll be happy with. Senseless praise for a piece of gear and soft-footing around the negatives isn't going to help anyone make an informed decision. In fact it just leads to disappointment, wasted money and a person who is now bitter at being mis-led by "those in the know".

I'd take out the word senseless above and just reiterate that I'm talking about praise without allowance for dissenting polite opinion. I thought I spelled this out clearly enough in my original post.

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

And if you'll control your rage for a minute, Aerius, you'll notice that I'm not against criticism. I hardly think anyone is (well, okay, there are a few particularly insecure parties, but none present in this thread as I can see). I just find your methods of criticism extremely weak and lazy. So easy to say "oh, yes, Sennheiser veil" when to a new poster that means nothing, and is much more extreme than the reality of the headphone.

It's the difference between saying Grado headphones have a forward presentation and particularly high treble presence and saying Grado headphones sound like ten thousand hammers hitting a metal acorn. The Grado Acorn, if you will. Meaningless words help no one, and while Veil isn't quite as utterly ridiculous as some descriptions, it's still not good enough to match the desired level of discourse.

 

[aerius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley And if you'll control your rage for a minute, Aerius, you'll notice that I'm not against criticism. I hardly think anyone is (well, okay, there are a few particularly insecure parties, but none present in this thread as I can see). I just find your methods of criticism extremely weak and lazy. So easy to say "oh, yes, Sennheiser veil" when to a new poster that means nothing, and is much more extreme than the reality of the headphone.

If you interpret what I said in my previous post as "rage", you have thin skin and are way too easily offended. Make an observation in somewhat blunt language and people start screaming "rage" and "anger management issues", I swear some people get offended more easily than a woman with a bad case of PMS. BTW, when I've said "Senn Veil" I've defined what it is, that being and I quote, "a general lack of clarity, low level details, and immediacy starting in the midrange and going all the way up to the treble". You can do a search of that yourself.

Quote:

It's the difference between saying Grado headphones have a forward presentation and particularly high treble presence and saying Grado headphones sound like ten thousand hammers hitting a metal acorn. The Grado Acorn, if you will. Meaningless words help no one, and while Veil isn't quite as utterly ridiculous as some descriptions, it's still not good enough to match the desired level of discourse.

Thank you for making an absurd analogy. The veil is a perfectly valid term as it accurately describes the sound of Senns as compared to many other headphones. Take a Grado, stick a piece of cloth between the drivers and your ears and the sound won't be too far off from a Senn. Thus it's quite acceptable. I have both headphones, I've done the listening, that's what it sounds like. But I guess people just don't like hearing bad things & blunt language. I too can write 5000 words of happy-feely crap that'll make everyone feel good, but what good does that do?

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius ROAR I swear some people get offended more easily than a woman with a bad case of PMS. ROAR

I can't take you seriously.

 

[jagorev]

Uh, durrr, Sennheisers are veiled, AKGs have no bass, Beyers are too bright or too bassy, Grados are grating, Sony's are harsh, Etymotics are thin and cold, Shures are muddy, and Bose rules over all. Jeez, was that so hard?

 

[MikoLayer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagorev Uh, durrr, Sennheisers are veiled, AKGs have no bass, Beyers are too bright or too bassy, Grados are grating, Sony's are harsh, Etymotics are thin and cold, Shures are muddy, and Bose rules over all. Jeez, was that so hard?

Haha, well put

out of those, my experience is very limited : HD-580, HD-650, DT231, SR-60, CD-3000 and E2C.

HD-580 was great and I would have still loved them had one of the drivers was not been destryoed

HD-650 is the closest thing to perfection I have heard up to date. After quite some time spent on tube rolling, power conditioning, resampling options and such, I have reached a point where I am wokring toward a different goal - new experience for a different sound as opposed to improvement to existing setup. In other words, there are no complaints whatsoever and I could be a lifelong happy camper unless I somehow get spoiled by a greater evil

DT231 - Just had a brief listen from (presumably) a sub-par portable source. Thought they werent too bad for their size, but obviously nowhere in the same league as HD-580 I had at that time.

SR-60 - This was my first shot at "grado house sound" having gone thru two different senns and a sony (CD3000). I was expecting something extremely harsh and painful to wear, but was pleasantly surprised that things werent all that shabby. Still, it was clearly outclassed by other phones I had and did get quickly uncomfortable to earlobes even with replaced pads. Yeah, brighter they were, and not harsh in the manner I would have imagined the way they would have been. But not the type of "airiness" I was looking for and sounded grainy without guts.

CD-3000 - I got sucked in when these cans were the FOTM being hailed over the HD-580. HD-650 wasnt close to being launched for another year or so. The pleather had a wow factor that accompanied superb comfort level, or so it seemed at first. But eventually I ended up preferring HD-580 due to the weight difference. CD-3000s are HEAVY and made their presence felt to my neck. As for sound, they were unbearably bright connected to my ZEN or later acquired PPX3. Strangely, a portable MP3 player didnt exhibit the same problem. http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...ghlight=cd3000 this is how I EQ'ed the CD3000s to sound right to my ears. After this tweak, they were quite enjoyable, but I still prefered HD-650 for their neutrality, lushness, coherence and soundstage. Currently they are being transformed to some kind of chimera-beast of a headphone by a crafty fellow head-fier

E2C - Admittedely, they are muddy, not the most refined phones I have heard. My idea of phones on the go is, however, that they should be soothing and well-suited for prolonged listening. E2C was just what I was looking for with polite and warm sound. Being IEMs, they are extremely efficient and isolating, just what I have been looking for at a reasonable cost. I seirously doubt I would need anything in a higher bracket for my portable rig.

Fewtch (or anyone else for that matter), do you think there is another phone I should give a listen given my above listed preference? Lately I have been thinking either K340 or DT880. Dont really know much about the K701, about to read up on some impressions in fact

 

[j0j081]

well I am a major newb to this forum and perfectly happy with my recently purchased hd555s but I have to say when I first heard the term veil, not knowning what it meant or which headphones it applied to, my instant reaction was it must be a negative thing. On the other hand, if "veil" would have been replaced with "layed back" or some other term I would have simply thought "oh so that's their style of sound." to me viel means something is being covered up or missing, not the best way to describe a sound signature imo.

 

[Cyrilix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley And if you'll control your rage for a minute, Aerius, you'll notice that I'm not against criticism. I hardly think anyone is (well, okay, there are a few particularly insecure parties, but none present in this thread as I can see). I just find your methods of criticism extremely weak and lazy. So easy to say "oh, yes, Sennheiser veil" when to a new poster that means nothing, and is much more extreme than the reality of the headphone. It's the difference between saying Grado headphones have a forward presentation and particularly high treble presence and saying Grado headphones sound like ten thousand hammers hitting a metal acorn. The Grado Acorn, if you will. Meaningless words help no one, and while Veil isn't quite as utterly ridiculous as some descriptions, it's still not good enough to match the desired level of discourse.

To me, the word veil conveys a feeling. It's meant to represent one of your own feelings. If you think I'm condescending, then I think you simply claim to understand it all even though you don't. How can you simply tell people that their criticism is weak and lazy? What if that's the best word they can find to describe that feeling? Now, I'm even talking about the Senns because I've never heard them before, and I won't even comment on them, but I've heard headphones that have given me a feeling of "veil", that's the first word and the best word that came to mind, even after a bit of thought. Don't be calling me lazy, just because I care to express myself that way.

About the criticism comment, people define whether their words are meant to be insulting or not. As a poster before mentioned, he felt that there might be a veil but he still enjoys the sound, although he doesn't mean veil in an insulting or flame-stimulating manner. If anything's the problem, I believe it's in the reactions of people that can't stand when so and so term is used because they don't feel it's right. Let loose, just listen to the opinions, disagree if you ...don't agree... but know that there's nothing that prevents anyone from using the term veil if they feel that's the best way to describe it.

I'll agree with Aerius on one thing. You are way too easily offended. Whether you disagree or not is your own opinion, but I'm just telling you mine.