[Audioholic123]

What is neutral

IMO a neutral headphone should be one that has full spectrum sound.
A headphone that can reach the lowest bass notes without sounding bloated, has warm mids yet no details are masked..and has no annoying treble peaks whilst being bright/clear enough to hear background details in recordings. So far in this hobby and especially upon reflection, the only headphone that i've ever heard that in my opinion actually does this properly is the Austrian made AKG K702..this headphone has always been and probably will always be my reference headphone.

 

[up late]

It is subjective. When I say booming I mean amplitude as stated. There are a lot of Fostex fans here who prefer that, and I respect it. Having had EMU Teaks, arguably least bass and treble boosted, mid recessed, that still seems mid recessed to me, that sound is just not for me. No, that's not as much bass as a sub next to your head, which isn't as much bass as a giant bass amp on stage. As a keyboardist, playing a little bass guitar, having run live sound, and worked in studios, what can deter me from headphones is too much hype in one area, while other areas are under-represented. It's a combination of functionality and practicality, yet still, a fun sound. I like boosted bass, a Harman Response Curve style. Ruler flat from lowest subs to true mids (ie. 1 khz), like planars have, lets me down, if 20 - 80 hz isn't higher than 800 hz, we will have a problem. Run from any headphones ruler flat on a graph from 20 hz to 20 khz, that's gonna hurt. The Sennheiser being cans I could mix on says a lot, as there are very few I hear like that. Sennheiser has apparently been listening to customers and learning. Now can they please listen to us and get rid of the idiot face we see in their advertising on every page?

yes our choice of descriptors to convey what we hear is subjective, which is why i prefer "boosted" to "booming". i associate "booming" with loud, deep and resonant. while the th900 has the capability to reproduce thunderous bass, that's not how i would characterise its bass presentation. whereas i think it's fair to say that the th900's bass is "boosted", "emphasised" or "increased" in amplitude relative to the rest of the frequency response. anyway, back to the hd820.

 

[franz12]

Studios actually use neither. Headphones are not used during mixing, when the works of producers are involved.

Do you know that even Audeze sells lots of their gears to pro musicians/studios? You have no clue.

 

[ervin192]

Do you know that even Audeze sells lots of their gears to pro musicians/studios? You have no clue.

Musicians are not producers and headphones are used in studios but not during mixing. Main monitors in the acoustic chambers are far superior in terms of flat responding. Most studios list their monitor speakers on their websites but never headphones. Difference between Audeze or Senn phones (I also suspect akg, sony or audio techina ones are more popular) are way larger than those between active monitors.

 

[Audioholic123]

Musicians are not producers and headphones are used in studios but not during mixing.

There are many musicians who do record/mix and master their own music (myself included). It is a good thing to use speakers and headphones during the mixing stages.

 

[ervin192]

There are many musicians who do record/mix and master their own music (myself included). It is a good thing to use speakers and headphones during the mixing stages.

Of course everyone can produce their own work and a lot musicians work individually or in small groups rather than relating to big studios, but this fact just defies the neutrality being defined as "from the producers' view" because there are some many very different producers. Furthermore, I don't think hifi gears are really needed in this situation; surely some musicians can prefer Audeze but most can use something just like a M50x to get their job done, if a headphone is needed. Listening pleasure and pro monitoring are just different worlds.

 

[Audioholic123]

Of course everyone can produce their own work and a lot musicians work individually or in small groups rather than relating to big studios, but this fact just defies the neutrality being defined as "from the producers' view" because there are some many very different producers. Furthermore, I don't think hifi gears are really needed in this situation; surely some musicians can prefer Audeze but most can use something just like a M50x to get their job done, if a headphone is needed. Listening pleasure and pro monitoring are just different worlds.

Music production can be a very complicated and time consuming process..and requires allot of skill. There are many different stages and things to do to make sure that the recorded music sounds good enough on everything it gets played through. This does not mean that producers will only get good results if they use the best headphones in the world..such headphones or speakers may or may not have the right kind of sound to make it possible. Music production requires headphones and speakers with the right kind of sound.

 

[ervin192]

Music production can be a very complicated and time consuming process..and requires allot of skill. There are many different stages and things to do to make sure that the recorded music sounds good enough on everything it gets played through. This does not mean that producers will only get good results if they use the best headphones in the world..such headphones or speakers may or may not have the right kind of sound to make it possible. Music production requires headphones and speakers with the right kind of sound.

You're right, please note that my main point is that the "producers' view" or what the producers heard are impossible to be defined as neutral sound, and the facts you mentioned just proved that producers don't pursue ultimate neutrality, at all. They need flat responding equipments more than others but they don't ever produce a 'neutral' sound. They serve for their audience.
As for the gears my experience is that in many cases the checking is needed (maybe even refer to others' opinions) but usually you don't change what you work with.

 

[franz12]

You're right, please note that my main point is that the "producers' view" or what the producers heard are impossible to be defined as neutral sound, and the facts you mentioned just proved that producers don't pursue ultimate neutrality, at all. They need flat responding equipments more than others but they don't ever produce a 'neutral' sound. They serve for their audience.
As for the gears my experience is that in many cases the checking is needed (maybe even refer to others' opinions) but usually you don't change what you work with.

let's stop this nonsense

 

[ervin192]

You can insist but this argument never ends, literally.

 

[franz12]

just go out and listen acoustic piano, acoustic guitar, and real human vocals. then compare them to your headphones.

 

[ervin192]

just go out and listen acoustic piano, acoustic guitar, and real human vocals. then compare them to your headphones.

I don't think Audeze excels in these, let along classical works. So you're right about let's stop this.

 

[Mark Up]

Let me clarify. I've been a musician my whole life dozens of bands and I run live sound / lights as well (always with heavy duty earplugs). Since the mid 1980's, pre-MIDI, all analog mixers and tape, I've done various studio work. Some in other studios with well tuned rooms, and helping friends in their home studios, and in my own home studio that is great acoustically but not perfect. I'm doing it all "in the box" (ITB) now in a DAW (Sonar & Pro Tools) I prefer using monitors. I also have a custom sub. I know my audio environment, and have produced and recorded rappers, folk singers, full rock bands, and mixed and mastered them on my main monitoring set up (Dynaudio BM6A Mk1 Classics and a sub) and some custom floor standing speakers. Having heard that some great engineers like Andrew Scheps (do a quick Google search) have mixed award winning albums on Sony MDR-7506 made me rethink things. Those are not comfortable to me, and have a mid bass bloat I don't like. I was already on headphone kick trying to find a pair just for casual listening, and realized there are times I want to work quietly and find that headphones give me a useful alternative perspective vs. monitors.

I finally found some I trust mixing on. I had an issue with my monitoring for a short time and actually had to master a project swapping between two very different sounding pairs, I was, in reality, able to do it as well as I did on monitors. One thing us engineers know is that our ears can adapt, and if you know your environment, and have enough reference tracks, you can do that if you must. Reference tracks are key. With headphones, with monitors, with floor standing speakers, the rule is simple. If you play a great mix (by Bruce Swedien, Michael Brauer, JJP, etc.) through any of those and it sounds "off" somehow, whatever is "off" is what is wrong with the (speakers, headphones). If it's sibilant and tinny, it's the gear. If it sounds boomy, the gear is boomy. If it sounds perfect, you've found something accurate, at least for your ears. Meaning, my treble sensitivity means my Dynaudio have the treble knob down 3-4 db. Run flat it's too much. Reference mixes through that - and my custom sub sitting in my ideal "sweet spot" (equidistant triangle from the monitors) are euphoric. This is how I know what needs to be fixed when I get a track to master, or what needs to be worked on in my own work.

 

[ervin192]

More interested in comparing the HD 820 with old Sony top-class closed cans, the MDR-CD3000 or the R10, if possible. Those are the ones with tight bass and open-back sound signatures within a closed chamber. The Th900, Z1R and most closed monitors present a fuller bass and imo are not appropriate opponents for the 820; it's just a matter of different signatures. Sennheiser is always good at distinctive tuning and they know the glass reflections will make them different in the current market.

 

[amartignano]

THE question is: will the pads of the hd820 be installable on the hd800s?