[zolkis]

One can easily have both headphones and a speaker system, and they are meant for enjoying the music in different settings, so the debate about which is better is kind of moot.

For musical enjoyment, one doesn't need 6 figure speakers to compete with reference headphones. Indeed the sound stage and physicality is better with speakers, and around 3000 euros one can get a good enough pair of speakers, see my examples a few pages back.

With both headphones and speakers, both objective and subjective methods are relevant. Objective methods set the minimum requirements, but our hearing is more refined than instruments in judging musicality. Correlation between objective and subjective is always what drives objective methods forward. For instance there is a huge literature about nonlinear distortions that are just being picked up by industry, for a next jump in where to focus to get most musicality out of a given budget.

 

[hekeli]

And let's again not forget we have the Realiser, if one needs headphones but wants a speaker stage. It's truly impressive stuff to hear it as it is when you measure a great system.

 

[bazelio]

One can easily have both headphones and a speaker system, and they are meant for enjoying the music in different settings, so the debate about which is better is kind of moot.

 
 
Yeah, why would there be a debate?  I can't listen to my speakers at work.  That's undebatable.  On the other hand, this notion that $150k speakers are a suitable reference point for headphones is absurd.  

 

[harmonix]

the ol' headphones vs speakers debate. like the cable, burn-in, importance of source and subjective impressions vs objective measurements debates, it never gets old.

No this is more to do with physics/acoustic.....

 

[harmonix]

One can easily have both headphones and a speaker system, and they are meant for enjoying the music in different settings, so the debate about which is better is kind of moot.

For musical enjoyment, one doesn't need 6 figure speakers to compete with reference headphones. Indeed the sound stage and physicality is better with speakers, and around 3000 euros one can get a good enough pair of speakers, see my examples a few pages back.

With both headphones and speakers, both objective and subjective methods are relevant. Objective methods set the minimum requirements, but our hearing is more refined than instruments in judging musicality. Correlation between objective and subjective is always what drives objective methods forward. For instance there is a huge literature about nonlinear distortions that are just being picked up by industry, for a next jump in where to focus to get most musicality out of a given budget.

Well said

 

[ubs28]

Yeah, why would there be a debate?  I can't listen to my speakers at work.  That's undebatable.  On the other hand, this notion that $150k speakers are a suitable reference point for headphones is absurd.  

Why is it a bad reference point? It is the best sound I have heard so far. Sounded exactly as a live performance so it is benchmark for me on what sounds good.

The closer something is to that kind of performance, the better it is according to my ears.

But like I said, everybody has a different benchmark on what sounds good. An example is the popularity of Beats headphones.

 

[Mike F]

Why is it a bad reference point? It is the best sound I have heard so far. Sounded exactly as a live performance so it is benchmark for me on what sounds good.

The closer something is to that kind of performance, the better it is according to my ears.

But like I said, everybody has a different benchmark on what sounds good. An example is the popularity of Beats headphones.

 
So why wouldn't the live performance be your reference point? 

 

[harmonix]

So why wouldn't the live performance be your reference point? 

I think he meant reference point for electronic playback not live performance...

Sure live is the benchmark but then do you.prefer Karajan or Solti? Berliner or CSO? What.is the reference?

 

[Mike F]

I think he meant reference point for electronic playback not live performance...

Sure live is the benchmark but then do you.prefer Karajan or Solti? Berliner or CSO? What.is the reference?

Well yes, exactly. I just meant that using a 150K speaker system as a reference for headphones is as meaningless (or meaningful) as comparing them to a live performance.

 

[ubs28]

So why wouldn't the live performance be your reference point? 

That is also my reference point but how do you know what other types of music should sound like that is not a recording of a live performance?

That's why my reference point is high end reference speakers. But you guys can have an other benchmark.

 

[Mike F]

That is also my reference point but how do you know what other types of music should sound like that is not a recording of a live performance?

That's why my reference point is high end reference speakers. But you guys can have an other benchmark.

 
Ah, electronic music......! Well now I understand what you mean. But the problem with music which is/was never in anyway natural in the first place is that it's reproduction becomes entirely a matter of taste, so in that sense no reference is actually possible or relevant.
 
However, I DO understand your point now.

 

[plakat]

   
Ah, electronic music......! Well now I understand what you mean. But the problem with music which is/was never in anyway natural in the first place is that it's reproduction becomes entirely a matter of taste, so in that sense no reference is actually possible or relevant.
 
However, I DO understand your point now.

As an avid listener of electronic music (I prefer speakers for everything else btw., especially Classical and Jazz) I can only second that: If I say 'I like how that sounds on this headphone' I don't have to append '... even if it does not sound like the live performance'
 
But I think this does not really make a headphones job any easier, just different. Plus lots of electronic music have vocals... the most critical element to reproduce. It does have the advantage of not going through microphones though (except for acoustical parts/samples of course).
 
Overall I think a headphone that reproduces electronics on a high level will be competent to reproduce acoustical/recorded music and vice versa. Still some headphones have their sweet spot with some specific genre (just as many love Grados for Rock). I tend to avoid these...
 
That being said I like the HD800S very much with my collection of music and have yet to find anything that sounds bad on it (I don't expect to find something though).
 
I don't compare to speaker setups since I use speakers and headphones for rather different situations (and yes, I do enjoy electronics on speaker setups, but for that I'll go with my PA equipment which is not exactly neighbor-friendly). The presentation is very different, so much so that I've found comparisons to be just too much of a stretch. And headphones give me good sound in situations where I would not be able to enjoy music as much or at all had I speakers only.

 

[up late]

No this is more to do with physics/acoustic.....

"physics/acoustic"?

 

[platinumbird]

Why is it a bad reference point? It is the best sound I have heard so far. Sounded exactly as a live performance so it is benchmark for me on what sounds good.

The closer something is to that kind of performance, the better it is according to my ears.

But like I said, everybody has a different benchmark on what sounds good. An example is the popularity of Beats headphones.

Dont mind me and totally off topic, but just wondering if it is worth upgrading my shure se535 LE to se846 since you have both?

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

  +1 waiting for Tyll's review

 
I've been asking...been told they're working on getting me a sample. I'll keep trying.