[Soundizer]

Personally I'd have dropped the 800 to 800 and the S at a grand. There doing it for 1200 cos the balanced cable.

Well sure that would be nice. But when you have the market filled with similar headphones that are way more expensive (stax, LCD, Hifiman) and people snapping them up, why would you do that? Senn's price given the market seems pretty good. Plus with the Senn's you get a much higher quality of build and a proven track record of being able to service very old headphones (along with Stax)... For, yes, a lower price than most of the competition. The only one that seems to come in lower are the Beyer T1s ( another german company) and personally I think the S and classic sound better. Since Beyer was having trouble competing in the TOTL headphone category, it makes sense that they dropped their price. 

I agree and from us "Customers / Revenue stream " it is outrageous that other Headphone Makers produce inconsistent quality headphones. I feel assured that SENN will be a safer choice and they even include the individual reference curve chart on a USB stick with the HD800S, this shows how confident they are in consistent quality.

If us "Customers / Revenue stream" spend more than 300 USD then make sure the quality is not compromised. I think there is better quality control in the SUB 1000 USD market segment than the high end. It is unacceptable.

On point about price I think the SENN have a competitive market price compated to other TOTL. This has been helped with the rise of silly premium prices by some other HEADPHONE Makers. The LCD4 (could buy 3 or 4 Senn HD800 headphones for the same price. Buy one for yourself and be KinG SANTA by giving away the others as Xmas / Diwali gifts. All above said, the SENN 800/800S Headphones seem to need more expensive amps right?(compared to AUDEZE, HIFIMAN, OPPO).

 

[hekeli]

Bob Katz is on the professional side and here is how he describes it:
To be honest, I think these phones are overpriced. When you open up a pair of these you wonder about the construction and the components. While a can like the Dharma have a specially made crossover and use separate custom-made low frequency and electrostatic drivers go for $400 less than the much-simpler Sennheisers!

 
Haha pretty funny.. I have to disagree with Mr Katz there as I consider HD800 one of the few if not only expensive headphones that actually are deserving of their price. Consider the sound what you will, but there's lots of R&D behind it, technical merits, comfortable wear, immaculate construction, and the best driver consistency in the business. Handmade by German Hausfraus no less! Wonder if Bob has sent his Audezes for driver replacements yet..

 

[grizzlybeast]

 

Bob Katz is on the professional side and here is how he describes it:
To be honest, I think these phones are overpriced. When you open up a pair of these you wonder about the construction and the components. While a can like the Dharma have a specially made crossover and use separate custom-made low frequency and electrostatic drivers go for $400 less than the much-simpler Sennheisers!

 
Haha pretty funny.. I have to disagree with Mr Katz there as I consider HD800 one of the few if not only expensive headphones that actually are deserving of their price. Consider the sound what you will, but there's lots of R&D behind it, technical merits, comfortable wear, immaculate construction, and the best driver consistency in the business. Handmade by German Hausfraus no less! Wonder if Bob has sent his Audezes for driver replacements yet..

I disagree there too and was going to point that out but forgot to. 

 

[TMRaven]

Would be interesting to hear Bob's thoughts on the HD800 S.  He really liked the HD800, but ended up preferring the LCD-X's EQ-ability over it because of the HD800's inherent 6khz peak.  Waterfall plots show the HD800 S's resonator directly attacks and for the most part gets rid of the peak, unlike any mods done to the HD800, which just lower the treble.  
 
The HD800 takes EQ really well, and has an abundance of technicalities going for its sonics that would make it an extremely good headphone to EQ-- if one desired a more neutral or warm-sloped sound.
 
Complaining that the stock HD800 S 'lacks neutrality' when referencing the professional realm is a moot point anyways, because at the end of the day, a professional would EQ their hardware in the first place to achieve the desired balance.  The audiophile can be all hoity-toity about being a purist and never introducing any kind of filter in his chain, but at the end of the day, if he enjoys his music while listening to his headphone, then more power to him.  After all, the whole notion of 'what an artist intended' is for the most part BS, because the professionals mix and master their content to be intended to listened to on a broad variety of gear-- from stock car audio all the way up to the most expensive 2-channel systems.

 

[dharma]

Seems that 'citing' is very popular lately here...
 
Tyll Hertsens • Posted: Feb 17, 2012
(also INNERFIDELITY as Bob Katz too)
 
[...]
Brutally honest sums it up. Some might use words like "analytical" and "detailed," but those words typically point towards some fault of the headphones being overly bright. I'm not entirely sure this is the case. Because these headphones create a sense of space and image so incredibly well, I tend to believe they've got to be delivering a very coherent and well balanced signal. No headphone, in my experience, sounds as much like a scientific audio instrument as the HD 800. If you are an audio professional an have an application where using an open headphone is possible, the Sennheiser HD 800 would be my highest recommendation. They are simply unmatched in giving you the ability to peer into the mix.
Now the bad part: these are not "fun" headphones. There are a lot of great sounding high-end headphones out there that beautifully editorialize in one way or another: the bass punch and warmth of the Audez'e LCD-3; the speed and air of the Stax SR-009; the lush yet crisp attack of a Grado RS1--all legitimately attempt to deliver a signature sound pleasing to listeners of particular aural taste-buds. Finding headphones the tickle your fancy is part of the fun of headphilia--I'll certainly admit to reaching for some of the above headphones to lush up my old Eddie Lang records. But they're not accurate ... and the Sennheiser HD 800 is. The problem is, raw accuracy and speed can be exhausting. You wouldn't want to take a Formula 1 car out for a lovely Sunday drive through the park, or worse yet, in typical rush hour traffic. It can be likewise difficult to sit back for a relaxing listening session to some old recordings with the HD 800.
[...]
The bump in frequency response at 7kHz, and the clear leading edge spike of the 300Hz square-wave may be an indicator of a slightly over-articulate sound. It's difficult to say whether those features are actually excessive, however, because they are near ideal. I think I heard a slight over-emphasis between 5kHz and 10kHz during pink noise listening, but it was slight. More important are the fairly clean and noise free 300Hz square wave and impulse response. The lack of a strong second upward spike after the initial transient, in my experience, indicates a coherent sound and good imaging, which these headphones have in spades.
THD+noise plots show a headphone with very low distortion. The slightly upward slope towards the bass of the 100dB traces indicates a slight loss of low frequency performance, which can also be seen in the downward curving top of the 30Hz squarewave, and the slight downward slope of the frequency response curve below 100Hz.
[...]
When I set up my lab, the only headphones I knew I had to buy were a pair of Sennheiser HD 800s--they are as close to perfect as a headphone gets. I think they are a must for any serious audio professional who has any work where open headphones could be used. They make an ideal headphone for mastering applications where even the tiniest sound must be laid bare. My only caution is that they may be perceived as slightly bright and analytical--though I think the perception is as likely to come from not being accustomed to the unbelievable transient response, as it is from an actual tonal imbalance. They might be a tad hot between 6kHz and 10kHz, though.
Audiophiles will likewise love these headphones, especially after a small modification.  [...]
____
 
If someone don't care FR above 10Khz, maybe just can EQ it fully down... and not 'boost' Sonarworks 'is doing'... or what?

 

[EddieE]

Now come on, I was never saying no one should care about what goes on below 60hz, or that it didn't have an effect on the character of the sound.
 
All I was saying was that a) I don't find it particularly make-or break and b) bass itself, and what most people think sub bass is, all exists way above the 60hz mark c) It was silly to say a headphone has lacking bass when it has the lowest registers of subbass a few db down.
 
That's all.
 
Here is a 60hz tone for reference - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Sf7rSOU78
 
And a chart - http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm
 
And no, it is nothing at all like saying no one should care about what is above 10kz - treble is piercing, and even though the fundamentals of most instruments are over by that point, it will have a much greater impact on the character of the sound to have too much or too little response above 10k. At the very bottom, it more effects the foundation and the solidity of the character of the sound, up the very top it can make listening an unbearable experience if its too coloured. 

 

[grizzlybeast]

That post was when the HD800 didn't have many competitors here he is saying it again. 
 
"Though not the microscope that the HD 800 is, in many ways the Audeze LCD-2 and LCD-3 are the more neutral sounding cans. I think the LCD-2 is perfectly adequate to the tasks of general audio recording and production work, but the slightly quicker and livelier sound of the LCD-3 is probably a more accurate representation of what's on the tape (or hard drive). I think I'd trust either of the Audeze cans for general balance and mixing over the HD 800, and I'd certainly prefer them for pleasurable listening. OTOH, the Sennheiser is cooler (temperature-wise) and more comfortable to wear for long periods, and it will let you hear low-level tweets and glitches more clearly.
Read more at http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/spectacularly-yummy-audeze-lcd-2-and-lcd-3-page-3#TsWbh6cvuRSFaU2w.99"
Quote:

  Would be interesting to hear Bob's thoughts on the HD800 S.  He really liked the HD800, but ended up preferring the LCD-X's EQ-ability over it because of the HD800's inherent 6khz peak.  Waterfall plots show the HD800 S's resonator directly attacks and for the most part gets rid of the peak, unlike any mods done to the HD800, which just lower the treble.  
 
The HD800 takes EQ really well, and has an abundance of technicalities going for its sonics that would make it an extremely good headphone to EQ-- if one desired a more neutral or warm-sloped sound.
 
Complaining that the stock HD800 S 'lacks neutrality' when referencing the professional realm is a moot point anyways, because at the end of the day, a professional would EQ their hardware in the first place to achieve the desired balance.  The audiophile can be all hoity-toity about being a purist and never introducing any kind of filter in his chain, but at the end of the day, if he enjoys his music while listening to his headphone, then more power to him.  After all, the whole notion of 'what an artist intended' is for the most part BS, because the professionals mix and master their content to be intended to listened to on a broad variety of gear-- from stock car audio all the way up to the most expensive 2-channel systems.

 

  Would be interesting to hear Bob's thoughts on the HD800 S.  He really liked the HD800, but ended up preferring the LCD-X's EQ-ability over it because of the HD800's inherent 6khz peak.  Waterfall plots show the HD800 S's resonator directly attacks and for the most part gets rid of the peak, unlike any mods done to the HD800, which just lower the treble.  
 
(1)The HD800 takes EQ really well, and has an abundance of technicalities going for its sonics that would make it an extremely good headphone to EQ-- if one desired a more neutral or warm-sloped sound.
 
(2) Complaining that the stock HD800 S 'lacks neutrality' when referencing the professional realm is a moot point anyways, because at the end of the day, a professional would EQ their hardware in the first place to achieve the desired balance.  (3) The audiophile can be all hoity-toity about being a purist and never introducing any kind of filter in his chain, but at the end of the day, if he enjoys his music while listening to his headphone, then more power to him. (4) After all, the whole notion of 'what an artist intended' is for the most part BS, because the professionals mix and master their content to be intended to listened to on a broad variety of gear-- from stock car audio all the way up to the most expensive 2-channel systems.

Okay so if you haven't recorded an album, featured on several as a recording artist, produced a couple, mixed a couple, or mastered a couple then you don't know what you are talking about. 
 
(1) I agree and it needs EQ to be tonally accurate as does the HD800S to a much lesser extent.
 
(2) "The only reason to EQ your monitors is if your room has problem frequencies and even then it isn't the best option. Adding EQ creates phase-smearing artifacts that further degrade the accuracy of your monitors. Point blank it is not best to EQ before you mix."  You are supposed to know your gear. Studios are supposed to test their rooms with sub woofer and monitor placements, acoustic difusers/deflectors, and pannels. There is a technique where people pick a song that they think sounds good, eq their monitors, and then mix to that but it is a shamed upon one because of the distortion and phase problems it causes. Truly you are supposed to trust your gear, treat your room,  and mix from there. 
 
(3) Right if he enjoys the HD800S as much as I do he has found the best headphone for him to date and enjoys it thoroughly but just needs to be educated on what accurate tonality is if he thinks the bass is full and solid when trying to help a new person understand the HD800 as to not mislead them.  Sure some songs sound fine but the majority of music needs a boost. Also, though the treble spike has been fixed marvelously, the hp exhibits some thinness, some boosted treble still in the upper treble and weak bass making it a lot closer to accurate but not "there" compared to your average and high end studio monitors which come a lot closer. 
 
(4) Again if you have recorded an album you would know the process. Since you obviously don't I will explain it to you. 
 
First there is a rough mix and the engineer sends it to the artist to hear. He gives feedback on the obvious stuff and then the engineer fixes that. The issue is though that the artist is usually listening on lower caliber gear or not neutral gear unless they have their own studio set up at home. 
 
Then there is the second mix where the artist should and usually does GO to the studio and listen to their song on the engineers set up. The artist critiques the mix with neutral sounding gear so he can hear all of the flaws of his or her (their) voice(s) and instrument(s). After all of the notes are taken the engineer submits the final mix to the artist, director, or person in charge and then after approved it goes to mastering. Where all of the transients peaks are cut out and the music in fullness is heard for maximum dynamic range, polishing and professional sound. IF THE ARTIST does not approve of the mix it gets mixed again, which could be at a price depending on the agreement. That is why mixing is usually charged per hour. When you have a good relationship they may charge per song....may... but most likely not. If the label has their own engineer he should be compensated per hour. 
 
Please know that, some engineers do mix for cars, radio etc but the do not mix FROM cars. They don't mix from cars and generally should not be eq'ing their gear to sound like one. 
 
Lastly the the best studio gear sounds close to neutral and headphones are always warned against for mixing. 

 

[dharma]

Treble is piercing to whome? At least not for me (with good recordings i.e. not modern music bad 'loudness war' mixing-mastering 'VV' shaped supercompression tricks)...
 
much more mportant, why Innerfidelity has still not analysed/reviewed Sennheiser HD800S (and some other too) ... maybe its good to read
Manufacturers Guide to Submitting Headphones for Review at InnerFidelity

 

[dharma]

Mixing On Headphones
Successful Mixing Without Loudspeakers
 
[...]
The only effects that will not work on headphones are 3D placement plug-ins that are designed for use with loudspeakers (the converse applies too).
[...]
Overall, it's quite possible to do the majority of your mixing on headphones as long as you can check occasionally through loudspeakers, as well as enhancing them for both playback systems. If this makes your music more attractive to the vast number of iPod users out there then all the better — remember, many potential purchasers may be auditioning your on-line tracks on headphones in the first place!

 

[grizzlybeast]

  Mixing On Headphones
Successful Mixing Without Loudspeakers
 
[...]
The only effects that will not work on headphones are 3D placement plug-ins that are designed for use with loudspeakers (the converse applies too).
[...]
Overall, it's quite possible to do the majority of your mixing on headphones as long as you can check occasionally through loudspeakers, as well as enhancing them for both playback systems. If this makes your music more attractive to the vast number of iPod users out there then all the better — remember, many potential purchasers may be auditioning your on-line tracks on headphones in the first place!

The article is not saying it is common practice. So the scenario is  a little out of context when judging the tonality of a headphone. He surely didn't have the HD800 in mind. Honestly if you know any playback device you can make useful adjustments and rough mix. It's just that optimum conditions are studio monitors in a treated room. 
 
Anyways I am done. whatever.... 

 

[dharma]

  The article is not saying it is common practice. So the scenario is  a little out of context when judging the tonality of a headphone. He surely didn't have the HD800 in mind. Honestly if you know any playback device you can make useful adjustments and rough mix. It's just that optimum conditions are studio monitors in a treated room. 
 
Anyways I am done. whatever.... 

Yes, but there is not said also as some one ultimately stated 'headphones are always warned against for mixing' ?!!!!! And some other mix related sites don't warn ultimately against 'mixing with hp-s'...
And mentioned 'He surely didn't have the HD800 in mind' is TRUE, because there was no HD800 at 2007!!

 

[grizzlybeast]

when ever you hear always, never take it literally. Go hang out at gear slutz and see how often its warned against. 
The article says 
"Mixing on cans is often frowned upon" 
 
Semantics... but still know that it is warned against. And quite often so. That is not to say it can't be done. It is just that a treated room with good monitors will usually sound more balanced 9/10. Know your gear. oh and lets not for get the rest of the title statement
 
"with only occasional checks on monitor speakers." hmmmm monitor speakers are still needed. Headphones never are.

 

[dharma]

  when ever you hear always, never take it literally. Go hang out at gear slutz and see how often its warned against. 
The article says 
"Mixing on cans is often frowned upon" 
 
Semantics... but still know that it is warned against. And quite often so. That is not to say it can't be done. It is just that a treated room with good monitors will usually sound more balanced 9/10. Know your gear. 

Audiophile recording label Sound Liaison
http://www.soundliaison.com/

with all recordings
Mixing headphones: Sennheiser HD800 and/or AKG K702
 
and also some other labels!

 

[dharma]

Enough is enough, don't care anymore...

 

[ubs28]

when ever you hear always, never take it literally. Go hang out at gear slutz and see how often its warned against. 
The article says 
"Mixing on cans is often frowned upon" 

Semantics... but still know that it is warned against. And quite often so. That is not to say it can't be done. It is just that a treated room with good monitors will usually sound more balanced 9/10. Know your gear. oh and lets not for get the rest of the title statement

"with only occasional checks on monitor speakers." hmmmm monitor speakers are still needed. Headphones never are.

Afrojack sells alot of records and he uses his laptop and the Beyerdynamic DT 880 pro alot. He isn't doing too badly since he has a Ferrari.