Sennheiser HD800S Unveiled!

[sysfail]

Use an EQ if you want more bass, it's really simple. 

Yeah you can really EQ the HD800 to sound anyway you like with a good EQ. Dark, warm, brighter, etc.

 

[monkeysixtysix]

My HD800S arrived today. Just wanted to give a shout out to Jan from Meier Audio. Fabulous costumer service and he gave me a great price. Anyone who doesn't want to wait until they hit the US or wants to save some money (or both), shoot Jan an email. Highly recommended...
 
I will add some impressions to the impressions thread in the next day or so...

 

[MacedonianHero]

   
Correct. The bass of HD800 or HD800S neither lacks of quality or quantity. Most of the headphones like Audeze, Hifiman, Denon, etc. have an overpowered bass to my ears. At least it is my opinion.

 
Head on over to innerfidelity or Headroom and you'll see that neither the HD800S or HD800 lacks bass quantity or quality.  I do prefer the HE1000 or LCD-4's presentation, but damn the HD800S headphones really fire on all cylinders for me!

 

[hekeli]

I don't know of a single headphone that has a natural rising slope from 100hz to 20hz, which is what you need (for headphones) to hear a neutral flat bass similar to studio environment. Just because most "audiophiles" don't care or understand doesn't make HD800 end of it all.
 
Are you saying that Sonarworks guys take these kinds of curves out of their *sses when the intention is matching a neutral flat studio sound that engineers actually use? (not to mention home theatre guys etc, who also want things flat)
http://www.head-fi.org/t/650510/the-new-hd800-impressions-thread/22050#post_12386473
 
Preferences are preferences, but the constant "it's the recordings" and stuff is more than amusing.

 

[hekeli]

  Or tolga findan say the song berg, The bass of HD800S sounds nice. Balanced, full, yet appropriate.

 
Well thanks for a perfect example showing what HD800 is lacking. How can you say "nice, balanced, full" when all the content below <40-50hz are pretty much inaudible? Especially if you don't listen very loudly.
 
Bass spectrogram of Tolga Fidan - Berg:

 
Using the Sonarworks curve I mentioned above, the subbass layer is actually heard (or to a certain degree, felt) like intended.
 
(Sorry I don't have HD800S, but no measurements suggest it has 3-12dB boost over HD800. Cables and amps don't make that difference either. EQ is the only way to make any headphone flat in the subbass region. Yes even Audeze needs correction, headphone measured flat is not studio flat as heard/felt by ears.)

 

[ubs28]

I don't know of a single headphone that has a natural rising slope from 100hz to 20hz, which is what you need (for headphones) to hear a neutral flat bass similar to studio environment. Just because most "audiophiles" don't care or understand doesn't make HD800 end of it all.

Are you saying that Sonarworks guys take these kinds of curves out of their *sses when the intention is matching a neutral flat studio sound that engineers actually use? (not to mention home theatre guys etc, who also want things flat)
http://www.head-fi.org/t/650510/the-new-hd800-impressions-thread/22050#post_12386473

Preferences are preferences, but the constant "it's the recordings" and stuff is more than amusing.

The bass of studio monitors have a severe sub bass roll off so that software doesn't mimick it.

Also the room changes the frequency response of neutral speakers, so you don't get a true flat response.
Maybe that's why some people suggest that bass hump?

According to my ears the bass levels are alright with the HD800S but I simply miss the vibrations threw my body with headphones. You need big loudspeakers for that kind of bass.

 

[hekeli]

The bass of studio monitors have a severe sub bass roll off so that software doesn't mimick it.

Also the room changes the frequency response of neutral speakers, so you don't get a true flat response unless you adjust the room perfectly.

 
I'm not talking about "home studios" with wimply 5" Genelecs. Why would you even bring it up? I'm talking about studios or home theatres (or any enthusiast that wants full bandwidth enjoyment) with equipment (whatever it is) with measured and calibrated performance down to <20hz.

 

[EddieE]

All speakers (unless they have built in subs) roll off before the sub bass - but remember they are measured in anechoic chambers.

In a real room, properly treated, good speakers will achieve good bass.

Headphone manufacturers have a blessing and a curse - they get to deign 80% of the 'room' themselves. The 'room' being 80% the pad enclosure and baffle, 20% the users ear, side of the head, hair, skin oils, and ear canals - which of course they have no control over hence headphones sounding a little different to everyone.

This is a blessing in that they get to ensure bass response, a curse in that 'room' reflections, resonances, and how they impact the frequency response and distortion levels show up in measurements, rather than being hidden by the anechoic chamber.

 

[lextek]

My 800S arrived yesterday from TTVJ. Initial impressions are very, good. I tried it with Mojo as a DAC to Bottlehead Crack/Speedball. The same set-up I use for beloved HD600s. Much more detail, Sound very natural to me. The live version of the Eagles Hotel California from the Hell Freezes Over album was really, amazing. I only listen for a short time last night, but so far I am very, pleased.

 

[grizzlybeast]

All speakers (unless they have built in subs) roll off before the sub bass - but remember they are measured in anechoic chambers.

In a real room, properly treated, good speakers will achieve good bass.

Headphone manufacturers have a blessing and a curse - they get to deign 80% of the 'room' themselves. The 'room' being 80% the pad enclosure and baffle, 20% the users ear, side of the head, hair, skin oils, and ear canals - which of course they have no control over hence headphones sounding a little different to everyone.

This is a blessing in that they get to ensure bass response, a curse in that 'room' reflections, resonances, and how they impact the frequency response and distortion levels show up in measurements, rather than being hidden by the anechoic chamber.

Still the HD800S is no where close to neutral anywhere in its FR.

Thin bass, thin midrange, boosted highs. This is coming from a guy who thinks the HD800S is the best I have ever had to date. To give this headphone the versatility of something truly Nuetral I will invest in an expensive EQ. But guess what the word Nuetral means, that it can work with any genre without bias and there is no hp that can do that... But plenty that can do it a lot better than the HD800S without EQ.

 

[EddieE]

Still the HD800S is no where close to neutral anywhere in its FR.

Thin bass, thin midrange, boosted highs. This is coming from a guy who thinks the HD800S is the best I have ever had to date. To give this headphone the versatility of something truly Nuetral I will invest in an expensive EQ. But guess what the word Nuetral means, that it can work with any genre without bias and there is no hp that can do that... But plenty that can do it a lot better than the HD800S without EQ.

I've not heard an S yet, but have had a lot of time with the standard 800, and as they apparently sound the same as the S (just the peak dealt with and a touch more bass) I find it hard to recognise your assessment.

The 800 mids are as true to life as anything I've heard. Bass realistic too, perhaps a touch delicate for many's liking but not seriously lacking. Sound stage and imaging? Never heard better.

The treble was what I couldn't stand about them, that peak, the sibilance, the stridency. Couldn't deal with it.

That's why I'm quite interested in the S, if they've largely solved the treble issues, then I think I'd like them. I liked everything bar the treble about the first version.

 

[EddieE]

I think people need to differentiate between bass and sub bass.

Almost no loudspeakers - including very high end ones - have much in the way of sub bass. This has never been a cause of anxiety for audiophiles because, before electronic music, there was next to no musical information down there anyway. Even with electronic music, sub bass is an "effect" - you don't lose any music by having less of it. You loose a little rumble, a little foundational body.

It makes a difference with movie effects like explosions and thunder, with the low notes of organ music, with some electronic music. That difference is not one of more information; its in the character of the sound.

Bass itself comes much higher in the frequency range.

I have never been particularly bothered by a headphones response, or a speakers in-room response below 60hz - with 99% of recorded music it will make zero difference.

If that subtle character change with a minority of music is important to your listening, more power to you, but saying a product has 'no bass' or even that it lacks in bass because its a few db down at 20hz is just not relistic.

 

[grizzlybeast]

^all of the bass is thin. Sub, mid, upper.

The mids on the HD800S and HD800 are a little thin. They are not nuetral relative to what is heard in a professional setting. 100% sure of this.

I enjoy the mids too but relatively speaking voices and bass lack weight and body. Bass IS seriously lacking in this context as well. It's okay though because like my producer says... "The music business and audiophiles are way different... I don't like how audiophiles listen" I consider myself both and can appreciate both views but when describing sound I have to pick a camp. How can I pick the camp thats not making the music when you don't know what was intended. Bob Katz is on the professional side and here is how he describes it:

"Number four is, surprisingly, the modified Sennheiser HD 800. To be honest, I think these phones are overpriced. When you open up a pair of these you wonder about the construction and the components. While a can like the Dharma have a specially made crossover and use separate custom-made low frequency and electrostatic drivers go for $400 less than the much-simpler Sennheisers! The modified HD800's, though, have a decent lower midrange, a reasonably tamed treble except for certain resonances excited by trumpets, for example, and a weak bottom that could easily be remedied with careful EQ, provided that your amplifier has the headroom. Bass frequencies require a lot more power than higher frequencies because of our ear's equal-loudness curve. People claim the unmodified HD800s have a lot of "resolution" but I think this is a result of a rising high frequency response. Not fair. If you like to "detail" at the expense of accurate tonality, then buy the HD800s and don't modify them.
Read more at http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-participant-report-bob-katz#YbzxzAl3U1LQIs7b.99"

So that guy hears a modified version having good lower mids but generally agrees, rather I agree w/him. After shooting out both models of the Senn, the bass of the S is not even a full db more to me but a little easier to hear minus the treble distractions.

Soooo... Lets think about it.... you have a guy whose ears are acclimated to professionally Mastering and engineering w/ more experience than we could imagine to. His tastes for headphones is rare for his profession yet....get this... He walks in to a room full of audiophile gear and picks the opposite of everyone else. Number one Stax 007.. the darker stax....Number two LCD-3 which (call this blasphemous) but compared to studio monitors I have heard and professional gear sounds wayyyy more balanced than the HD800S. Even Tyll used to recommend the LCD's over the HD800 for mixing and said the HD800 was not the good choice for mixing but a good tool for catching flaws as microscope.

I personally am biased towards the professional camp because why would we buy their music and wash all of the seasoning off with something so sterile and cold as the HD800. Its technical performance precedes it and is rightfully acclaimed but it is the "pickiest" because it is not balanced and most people mod it, and amp match it to regain the body without losing its technical ability. It is the corner stone of this hobby; The test tool of half of the amp manufacturers; the most discussed hp out there in regards to amping and modding because no one wants a thin amp to match. Yet you all keep saying it has enough bass etc... The amp matching problems weren't just to tame the highs. Numerous posts of unmeasurable amounts have been made about adding more body to the HD800. The S did not solve this problem but only fixed one issue and slightly helped the other.

I do not see this post as refutable... but certainly someone will. As a lover of the HD800S I eq mine and thoroughly enjoy it with the anticipation of tube rolling just like tons of others to give me the sound I am after with it.

 

[hekeli]

I have never been particularly bothered by a headphones response, or a speakers in-room response below 60hz - with 99% of recorded music it will make zero difference.

If that subtle character change with a minority of music is important to your listening, more power to you, but saying a product has 'no bass' or even that it lacks in bass because its a few db down at 20hz is just not relistic.

 
That's your preference. It's like saying, I don't need to hear anything above 10khz or so, since 99% of the music content is below.. 

 Pretty typical argument. Even if we ignore everything under 50hz, "studio flat" still means around ~5dB boost there.
 
I don't think anyone is claiming HD800 has no bass. It has nice and accurate bass. But considering the whole headphone tonality which is bright, it obviously makes the bass seem less. This is easily demonstrated using Sonarworks "optimum curve" which keeps the tonality intact, only fixing the peaks and valleys (red line). As you see it's a very down slope. Again, this is from the guys that carefully calibrate and listen to headphones, matching them to actual flat studio setup.
 

 
I suggest people checking the diyers cookbook thread too. There's lots of talk about Sonarworks and (sub)bass stuff too which specific tweaks. Pretty much agree with things said there. I do not consider subbass an "effect". It's a real part of the music, it's something the producer intended to be there, and can directly contribute to "wholeness" and emotions you get from listening. Tastes vary so YMMV.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/781268/the-diyrs-cookbook

 

[grizzlybeast]

^yes to clarify my view... the HD800S has fantastic bass quality and control. Better than the Dharma and LCD3F. Supremely tight ... tighter than my Omni and faster with decent extension.