[fuzzybaffy]

I'm glad I took a poop before I responded so I could re-asses what you were saying, and realize that you were being sarcastic. 

 

[SunshineReggae]

Quote:

O2 fanboys like to think O2 is all they ever need, but that's just dumb. 

 
What's dumb is the idea that some kind of magic beyond measurements exists that requires huge amounts of money to attain. It doesn't exist. When it comes to amps and their sound quality, the only kinds of situation where one may not perform adequately is where it either measures bad, or where it lacks the power to properly drive the headphone in question. Other than that, there's no need for anything more expensive than for example an O2 or a fiio e9, provided you don't care about things like esthetics and build quality.  This is not just related to the O2, but to any amp that measures well enough so as to have no audible deficiencies.
 
So if you have a HD650 with a fiio e9, or an o2, or any kind of decently measuring device, learn to love it. Amping won't get any better. If you need more bass, get an amp with bass boost or use a speaker amp with high output impedance. Anything else, learn to use an equalizer. Your HD650's are not going to sound any better with hundreds of bucks of tube audio jewellery.

 

[fuzzybaffy]

What you should do, is pick up a musical instrument, preferably a wind instrument, learn to play it, and then realize there's more to the sound coming from musical instruments than "loudly" and "softly". 

 

[fuzzybaffy]

What's dumb is the idea that the only way to judge sound is to measure it. 

 

[SunshineReggae]

Quote:

What you should do, is pick up a musical instrument, preferably a wind instrument, learn to play it, and then realize there's more to the sound coming from musical instruments than "loudly" and "softly". 

I play the guitar. I also know that the art of playing an instrument has nothing to do with the science of amping.

 

[SunshineReggae]

Quote:

What's dumb is the idea that the only way to judge sound is to measure it. 

 
This is not about judging sound, but about judging amps. And yes, the sound quality of amps can be judged purely on their measurements and their available power to drive headphones or speakers.

 

[fuzzybaffy]

Right. 
 
Not saying they're the same, but the principles are pretty similar. Playing a musical instrument isn't always about "loud" and "soft". There are things, from the way instruments are built, to the way you play them, that can change the tone coming from them. Things like warmth and intonation. 
 
The same principle applies to amps. I'm pretty sure the power behind amps isn't a binary +/- function. 

 

[scolaiw]

Quote:

What's dumb is the idea that some kind of magic beyond measurements exists that requires huge amounts of money to attain. It doesn't exist. When it comes to amps and their sound quality, the only kinds of situation where one may not perform adequately is where it either measures bad, or where it lacks the power to properly drive the headphone in question. Other than that, there's no need for anything more expensive than for example an O2 or a fiio e9, provided you don't care about things like esthetics and build quality.  This is not just related to the O2, but to any amp that measures well enough so as to have no audible deficiencies.
 
So if you have a HD650 with a fiio e9, or an o2, or any kind of decently measuring device, learn to love it. Amping won't get any better. If you need more bass, get an amp with bass boost or use a speaker amp with high output impedance. Anything else, learn to use an equalizer. Your HD650's are not going to sound any better with hundreds of bucks of tube audio jewellery.

On a parallel to what you said, should it not be noted that amps are not neutral and can offer different sound signatures. For example, many tube amp aficionados buy tube amps expecting some form of harmonic distortion that provides that warm tube sound. The entire point of tube rolling (and even amp rolling) is to find that perfect and exact sound signature that someone subjectively prefers. Of course this extends to solid state amps too. So whilst inflated prices are not justified, paying more for a certain sound is. 

Furthermore, if one were to compare two amps, one with a THD of 0.000001% and another with 0.00000000000001% should it not be reasonable for an amp maker to charge more for the latter? Provided they made it clear that there is no discernible difference between the two, isn't it still justified to be paying more for better tech? 

 

[SunshineReggae]

Quote:

Right. 
 
Not saying they're the same, but the principles are pretty similar. Playing a musical instrument isn't always about "loud" and "soft". There are things, from the way instruments are built, to the way you play them, that can change the tone coming from them. Things like warmth and intonation. 
 
The same principle applies to amps. I'm pretty sure the power behind amps isn't a binary +/- function. 

You are "pretty sure". But I am sure period. I am however not posting these things to convince you, because I know that in certain ways, trying to convince anyone on the internet is pointless. So that's not what this is about. What I would like though is for any person who doesn't know what the deal is about amps and who is wondering whether it's worth it to spend hundreds of bucks on some tube amp when he's already got a perfectly fine integrated speaker amp, to reads posts like mine and take them as an incentive to go looking for the truth in this matter. It will save them a lot of trouble, especially since I know where they're at. I've also once held the position that it's impossible for amps to be that generic. Once you do want to know the truth about this though, it's very easy to find it.
 
Anyway, this is not about the HD650 at all anymore and knowing head fi I'm shaping up to be pretty good ban bait, so I'm going to leave it at this.

 

[fuzzybaffy]

I won't. I disagree with you. You say you're right, but just because you say you are, doesn't mean you are. 

 

[SunshineReggae]

Quote:

On a parallel to what you said, should it not be noted that amps are not neutral and can offer different sound signatures. For example, many tube amp aficionados buy tube amps expecting some form of harmonic distortion that provides that warm tube sound. The entire point of tube rolling (and even amp rolling) is to find that perfect and exact sound signature that someone subjectively prefers. Of course this extends to solid state amps too. So whilst inflated prices are not justified, paying more for a certain sound is. 

Furthermore, if one were to compare two amps, one with a THD of 0.000001% and another with 0.00000000000001% should it not be reasonable for an amp maker to charge more for the latter? Provided they made it clear that there is no discernible difference between the two, isn't it still justified to be paying more for better tech? 

 
There is coloration and there is 'the tube sound'. Coloration of the sound is nothing that can't be done with an EQ. In fact, if you want to find the perfect and exact sound signature as you put it, the best way to go about it is in fact learning how to use an EQ (and trying out different headphones). But if you want to try your luck with tubes, good luck. In my past, I once spent more than fifty bucks rolling some tubes only to find out I might as well have thrown my money in a river. YMMV.
As for the tube sound, there has yet to be done any kind of controlled testing that proves it actually exists in a way that is audible to human beings.

 

[maarek99]

Quote:

 
There is coloration and there is 'the tube sound'. Coloration of the sound is nothing that can't be done with an EQ. In fact, if you want to find the perfect and exact sound signature as you put it, the best way to go about it is in fact learning how to use an EQ (and trying out different headphones). But if you want to try your luck with tubes, good luck. In my past, I once spent more than fifty bucks rolling some tubes only to find out I might as well have thrown my money in a river. YMMV.
As for the tube sound, there has yet to be done any kind of controlled testing that proves it actually exists in a way that is audible to human beings.

 
Now this is just dumb. You can't introduce even ordered harmonic distortion that tubes have through EQ. Do you even think these things through?
 
And yes, there has been studies that corraborated that even ordered harmonic distortion is more pleasant to the ears (which tube-amps have a lot) vs odd ordered harmonic distortion (solid states).
 
Regarding the EQ stuff...There is absolutely NO WAY I can make the Onkyo A-5VL stereo amp sound like the Asus Essence STX soundcard. I've tried but it's just not possible. And they are both solid states. The differences are somewhere else than in the FR.

 

[Stalker81598]

Quote:

 
Now this is just dumb. You can't introduce even ordered harmonic distortion that tubes have through EQ. Do you even think these things through?
 
And yes, there has been studies that corraborated that even ordered harmonic distortion is more pleasant to the ears (which tube-amps have a lot) vs odd ordered harmonic distortion (solid states).
 
Regarding the EQ stuff...There is absolutely NO WAY I can make the Onkyo A-5VL stereo amp sound like the Asus Essence STX soundcard. I've tried but it's just not possible. And they are both solid states. The differences are somewhere else than in the FR.

 
Just thought I'd point out that while this is true, tube amps tend to have a higher percentage of THD (in the area of 0.1 - 0.2%) and solid states have a much lower percentage (0.005 - 0.01%). This is why many who like that warm sound go for tubes and solid state is attributed more toward "accuracy". So really it just comes down to personal preference and what you are looking to get out of your setup.

 

[rxgolf]

I just hope that when it was stated that the o2 would be better than just ok, that is true? Now I am very much questioning if my decision to put these two together was a decision I spent enough time with???
Greg

 

[bracko]

Actually, it seems we are paying big bucks for coloration (besides the looks, fancy material and brand name). Just my 2c