[Tilpo]

The HD650 on the other hand requires a better amp than what I have, in order to clear it up a lot. 

I disagree. If find the NFB-12 to be perfectly adequate for the HD650. Spending more on an amplifier won't really give you all that much more performance.
IMO it's only a myth that you must have an excellent amp to drive the HD650. Or at least, something such as the NFB-12 is an excellent amp in my book.

 

[ac500]

The reason I say the NFB12 is suboptimal is because my MacBook Air sounds less veiled than my NFB12.
 
Probably because the NFB12 is dark and the MBA is brighter/neutral, but it's a fact nonetheless.

 

[captouch]

Quote:

I disagree. If find the NFB-12 to be perfectly adequate for the HD650. Spending more on an amplifier won't really give you all that much more performance.
IMO it's only a myth that you must have an excellent amp to drive the HD650. Or at least, something such as the NFB-12 is an excellent amp in my book.

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.  

 
I have the NFB-12 and I've never been satisfied with what it does with the HD650's.  It's fine, but that's about it.  On the other hand, there's the Bottlehead Crack w/Speedball, which is much more dynamic, smooth, clear, and somewhat more detailed as well.  The HD650 with Crack leaves me wanting nothing and I can say is a GREAT listen.  The 650's with the NFB-12, are meh and not what I'd call adequate once you've heard what the HD650 can really do.  
 
The NFB-12 sounds better with my DT880/600's, because there's more inherent brightness and detail to these phones, so the "dulling" effect of the HP amp section of the NFB-12 isn't as noticeable and on some recordings can actually be beneficial.  But the DT880's also take a big step up in everything on something like the Crack.
 
 
 

 

[captouch]

Quote:

I've written more extensive comparisons, but put simply: The HD650 is technically better, but the two have different sound signature preferences.
 
HD650: MUCH better bass. Better mids, better treble. Neutral-ish bass IMO except for a midbass boost, recessed treble.
 
DT880: Neutral treble, neutral mids, recessed bass (IMO).
 
Both are natural sounding and excellent choices. Also keep in mind the comfort differences: HD650 is better for large heads and ears due to superior headband comfort and larger earcups vertically, while the DT880 is better for medium or smaller heads because it clamps less. 
 
The DT880s rather flat sound signature is very appealing in some ways, but ultimately the HD650 is a small step ahead of it in sound quality IMO (a big step ahead in the bass department). I also prefer the HD650 sound signature in terms of just pure easy and musical listening -- the HD650 has beautiful liquid lows that I've not heard elsewhere yet (except for LCD2 of course) and still manages treble detail and quality better than the DT880 to my ears.

I agree the HD650 has much better bass - there's much more of it and therefore you really feel it.  I think the DT880 bass is more precise/distinct, but less.  Overall it feels like the HD650 bass goes lower (but not sure how much of that is due to quantity).  The mids on HD650 are fuller and smoother.  The treble is very much there on the 650's, but not at all overly prominent.   I would say it's got a great balanced sound, though on some recordings that midbass boost could be a bit much if you're sensitive to bass.
 
I'd say the DT880's have balanced/neutral mids and bass, but more prominent treble - so some differences in our assessment there.
 
I did fairly extensive listening (coincidentally) last night with both cans on both my Crack w/Speedball and EF-5.
 
The EF-5/DT880 combo was what I would say is the closest/most convincing to making me feel like I'm right there, live.  Everything is so distinct, sounds are separated and airy.  
 
The EF-5/HD650 sounds great, but more like a beautifully produced recording (vs live).  Everything is blended together (which is pleasant, though less airy).

The Crack adds more smoothness and warmth to both cans.  Overall, I prefer it by a bit to the EF-5.
 
Between the DT880 and HD650 on the Crack, it's mostly mood/recording dependent, but in most cases I'd go with the HD650.  Nothing sounds bad with the HD650.  I listened to some metal (well, what I'd call metal - Nirvana for example) and it sounded great.  The DT880 can sound overly bright (especially coming straight from the HD650) on some recordings - while going from the DT880 to HD650 doesn't give me the impression of dullness ever (at least on these two amps).
 
The DT880 is brighter, faster, and I think more detailed on the high end due to the higher quantity of treble.  So overall, I agree with some small differences, except to say the HD650 treble detail and quality is better than DT880.
 

 

[syphen606]

Quote:

You will find that HD650's are considerably brighter than HD558's, they have much more treble, very sparkly, but not piercing, and much more detail. Mids are about the same, bass is about the same in most cases, even though HD650's are able to produce considerably more of it.
The thing is though, HD650's are much less fun to listen to than HD558's, IMHO. Today, a year and a half after I bought them, my HD558's still make me go WOW sometimes,  HD650's never ever did, not in a single song, no matter which volume I listen at or what kind of mood I'm in.  I can feel ready for a party, once I start listening to 650's, serious face comes on and all the fun is gone.  Thats my only complaint about HD650's.  They aren't dark, they aren't muffled, they aren't slow, they are in fact opposite of all that (at least new models), but it just isn't a headphone that will make you tap your feet or do an air guitar while jumping around in your room until you go too far away from the amp, cable unplugs and speakers automatically start to scream at high volume in the middle of the night...
 

Wow, thanks for taking the time to type that up. I think thats what I want - a more detailed listen.  I currently have ATH-M50's and the Senn HD558's and have really enjoyed them but sometimes don't get the same detail from them as my IEMs. I borrowed a pair of ATH-A950LTD's from a friend and found them more detailed in the trebles then either of my cans already but I found their bass was totally non-existant & lacking.. So I started to look at the DT880 and HD650. My experience with the 558 led me to the 650 naturally I guess.
I'm looking forward to trying them out!
 
 

 

[GetsugaSSJ]

In terms of needing a decent amp for the HD650s, I planned on getting the Asgard/Bifrost combo. Would that alleviate any of the HD650s shortcomings such as the "veil" and laid back treble?

 

[ShooTa]

the newer versions of the HD650 are much better than the older versions of a few years ago - thus the veil that you have read about is barely there at all - and is nowadays more called veil when infact its just newer buyers not having a clue between mids and treble due to so much of nowadays music being mid light and treble heavy...
as for the combo you talk about - you will want for nothing untill the next Hyped up Thing of the month comes along. (but they will drive them fine)
 
Grats to the Crack/speedball owner above - should be joining you shortly when ive found the cash

 

[Austin Morrow]

Quote:

I disagree. If find the NFB-12 to be perfectly adequate for the HD650. Spending more on an amplifier won't really give you all that much more performance.
IMO it's only a myth that you must have an excellent amp to drive the HD650. Or at least, something such as the NFB-12 is an excellent amp in my book.

I think I may be able to clear some things up. I've tried amps ranging in price from $50 to $10,000. The HD650 will sound it's best (like literally a top tier headphone) on a good setup. However, the HD650 does sound good with a basic amp and source, as long as it is able to synergies well.

 

[Tilpo]

I think I may be able to clear some things up. I've tried amps ranging in price from $50 to $10,000. The HD650 will sound it's best (like literally a top tier headphone) on a good setup. However, the HD650 does sound good with a basic amp and source, as long as it is able to synergies well.

I personally had a hard time finding differences between my different amps, but that was fairly quick A/B and not prolonged listening.

Let's hope my ~$650 Beta22 will make a larger differences when I will finish it. Can't wait until those dreaded JFET's finally arrive.
I will remain sceptic, but I shall try to do very thorough A/B for prologned times between my Little Dot MK IV, NFB-12 and my Beta22

 

[captouch]

Quote:

I personally had a hard time finding differences between my different amps, but that was fairly quick A/B and not prolonged listening.
Let's hope my ~$650 Beta22 will make a larger differences when I will finish it. Can't wait until those dreaded JFET's finally arrive.
I will remain sceptic, but I shall try to do very thorough A/B for prologned times between my Little Dot MK IV, NFB-12 and my Beta22

 
What's the BOM cost for building a Beta 22?  I think it's a much more complicated build than a Crack.    Looking forward to hearing how that goes and how it compares.

 

[Austin Morrow]

Quote:

I personally had a hard time finding differences between my different amps, but that was fairly quick A/B and not prolonged listening.
Let's hope my ~$650 Beta22 will make a larger differences when I will finish it. Can't wait until those dreaded JFET's finally arrive.
I will remain sceptic, but I shall try to do very thorough A/B for prologned times between my Little Dot MK IV, NFB-12 and my Beta22

I'm looking forward to hearing your comparisons.

 

[davidgotsa]

What exactly sounds so much better in the HD650's with a good setup? 
 
Quote:

I think I may be able to clear some things up. I've tried amps ranging in price from $50 to $10,000. The HD650 will sound it's best (like literally a top tier headphone) on a good setup. However, the HD650 does sound good with a basic amp and source, as long as it is able to synergies well.

 

 

[Austin Morrow]

Quote:

What exactly sounds so much better in the HD650's with a good setup? 
 


 

Depends. I think the HD650 out of something like a WA2 sounds superb. To each his own regarding scalability factor though.

 

[Gwarmi]

 
 
Finally found a setup the other day that made me actually love this headphone again,
 
Cable swap over to a ALO 18wg Jena Wire running through a Ray Samuels Raptor.
 
Big lift all round in the upper mids and treble area yet always retaining that smooth
top end HD650 sound. Suited my tastes very nicely.
 
Stock cable through a warm amp just never rocked my boat with these.
 
<hides before rotten fruit and vegetables are thrown>
 

 

[Austin Morrow]

Quote:

 
 
Finally found a setup the other day that made me actually love this headphone again,
 
Cable swap over to a ALO 18wg Jena Wire running through a Ray Samuels Raptor.
 
Big lift all round in the upper mids and treble area yet always retaining that smooth
top end HD650 sound. Suited my tastes very nicely.
 
Stock cable through a warm amp just never rocked my boat with these.
 
<hides before rotten fruit and vegetables are thrown>
 

Very awesome. I think cables make a sound quality difference, but to each his own. Good thing you are enjoying your HD650's.