[LazyListener]

I'm very specifically looking for "best mids for your bucks", so while I'm sure the monoprices are great, I don't see the need for them personally

Best mids I heard for around the 650's price was with the Hifiman HE400S. And I hear the bass is pretty nice too if you swap out the pads. They do have more treble than 650 though.

 

[LazyListener]

over the years I've come to seriously question this.
pro:
we keep the same digital values as the file being played(at least until some up/oversampling, possible EQ, replaygain, etc, come kicking in). the bit perfect idea and maximum digital SNR.
con:
- potential oversample clipping.
- if it's a basic volume knob on the amp(not digital control and no step levels with pairs of resistors), having to lower the voltage with it to compensate for maxed out digital level may increase channel imbalance.
- until it's tested with the amp into the given load, we don't know if the amp can match the digital resolution(usually can't), so the amp is often were the SNR and general fidelity should be a concern. of course that is entirely dependent on the amp used and some personal measurements would tell us if there is a sweet spot or any reason for concern.

all in all his 66% on windows is only -6dB, I can't imagine a situation where that would be an issue.

So what do you recommend for most users who can't take measurements? Windows and software volume at 100% as long as it sounds okay?

 

[kubedzero]

I currently have Superlux HD668Bs and am feeling like they currently lack a little in the lows. I'm wondering if these or the HD600s would be better to fill that gap in, with the knowledge that the pronounced highs on the Superluxes don't bother me.

 

[castleofargh]

So what do you recommend for most users who can't take measurements? Windows and software volume at 100% as long as it sounds okay?

I have no idea how to do fidelity without measurements. my trust in listening abilities(mine or anybody's) as a judge of fidelity is minimal.
as weak rules of thumb, maybe staying reasonably high on the digital volume. I mean going -80dB on our player is not very likely to improve sound. and the good old "avoid the first 1/3 of the amp's volume knob is possible for channel balance". trying to comply with both might already be a challenge sometimes depending on the gain of the amp.

right now if I had no idea, no obvious trouble, and no mean to check anything(arrrrrghhhhhh), I would settle somewhere around -3dB on the digital side just from fear of intersample clipping. such a setting would have very little fidelity impact(output the signal to the DAC at 24bit for even less impact). and at the same time it's enough to make almost all potential cases of intersample clipping go away. that wouldn't aim at the best possible sound, it would only be a safety choice. without issues in the best world possible, then of course 100% digital is the right choice.

 

[LazyListener]

I have no idea how to do fidelity without measurements. my trust in listening abilities(mine or anybody's) as a judge of fidelity is minimal.
as weak rules of thumb, maybe staying reasonably high on the digital volume. I mean going -80dB on our player is not very likely to improve sound. and the good old "avoid the first 1/3 of the amp's volume knob is possible for channel balance". trying to comply with both might already be a challenge sometimes depending on the gain of the amp.

right now if I had no idea, no obvious trouble, and no mean to check anything(arrrrrghhhhhh), I would settle somewhere around -3dB on the digital side just from fear of intersample clipping. such a setting would have very little fidelity impact(output the signal to the DAC at 24bit for even less impact). and at the same time it's enough to make almost all potential cases of intersample clipping go away. that wouldn't aim at the best possible sound, it would only be a safety choice. without issues in the best world possible, then of course 100% digital is the right choice.

So, basically, the windows/OS PC volume, keep just shy of 100%?

 

[cskippy]

Ideally use the streaming service volume line in Tidal or Spotify as that's the first digital volume control. Just move it down a smidge <technical term. Lol

 

[jimmers]

- potential intersample* clipping.

*edit: I wrote oversample clipping somehow, and I blame my brain, not me. ^_^

I your oversampling filter uses more bits than the signal e.g. 32 bits for 16/24 bit material (who has 32 bit music - seriously ...) then intersample clipping should not occur. (?)

So go source 100%.

 

[castleofargh]

So, basically, the windows/OS PC volume, keep just shy of 100%?

well that's my first concern when nothing else seems to be an issue, but it deals only with some potential(and usually small) clipping. that's why I think the quest for fidelity requires some measurements so that we can, when necessary treat the issues we find.
if I take my situation, changing the volume level on my O2 doesn't change the signal quality much. and the noise floor is still not audible in the headphone with the digital level maxed out and the amp set to my preferred loudness . but I can get up to a good 0.5dB of channel imbalance even at the lowest gain. to reduce that I could lower the digital volume level until I'm out of the first 1/3 of the amp's knob where the problem is most significant, or like I did I can fool around with the knob and a voltmeter until I hopefully get lucky and find a small channel imbalance within the area where the loudness would be fine for me even with the computer at 100%. so now I leave my amp alone where I get a little less than 0.1dB imbalance, and I set the loudness only from the computer. it's not ideal, I just had 2 variables and decided channel imbalance was my main issue at this time.

on my portable amp, I have a digital control of the volume(analog volume, controlled by a chipset, not really digital) and thanks to that, channel imbalance is virtually non existent at all volume settings. so here I set the loudness with the amp's knob and do keep my digital level short of 100%(for intersample clipping paranoia). it's also beneficial that way because on that specific amp, the noise increases as I increase the amp's volume, so here I have nothing to "gain"(pun forbidden by the Geneva convention) lowering the digital level and pushing the analog one. also I would soon hit a wall with the hd650 as the amp reaches 1%THD a little over 50mW into 300ohm. so while I have enough for any loudness level I can dream of using, I can't just give digital level away like it will never matter.

we could on rare occasions fall onto other situations. maybe the DAC outputs 2 or 3V but you're using a portable amp that was designed to get about 1V(happened a lot when the ipod was all the rage), then you may need to decrease the digital level a little just to start getting a listenable sound.

and of course one might use properly mastered albums where the guy didn't stick the signal to 0dB like a noob. or maybe you're using replay gain with careful settings(the slow scanning ones with a good oversampling rate and avoid clipping option) so all the brickwalled stuff end up digitally attenuated anyway. in which case you might not have any file clipping and there is no point avoiding 100% digital volume level anymore. the end result is the same, someone or something placed the signal so that it's not too close to 0dB.

different devices and situations give different problems(or no problem hopefully).

I your oversampling filter uses more bits than the signal e.g. 32 bits for 16/24 bit material (who has 32 bit music - seriously ...) then intersample clipping should not occur. (?)

So go source 100%.

I don't see why that would change anything for intersample clipping? bit depth does nothing for the 0dB upper limit and crappy sound engineers.

am I getting off topic enough? ^_^ soz.

 

[jimmers]

I don't see why that would change anything for intersample clipping? bit depth does nothing for the 0dB upper limit and crappy sound engineers.

am I getting off topic enough? ^_^ soz.

If you stick 24 bits into 32 bits the 0dB "upper limit" can be 48dB down if you align LSBs, or +/- 24dB when you centre the signal - gives a bit of headroom (and footroom).
But if you use NOS DACs

 

[penmarker]

Rule of thumb is if you can't hear it, don't worry about it.

 

[DavidA]

Rule of thumb is if you can't hear it, don't worry about it.

I like "if its not broken, don't fix it"

 

[castleofargh]

that's actually how I roll most of the time, if it's not annoying I usually leave it alone. although I end up testing a lot of things purely out of curiosity or to make sure I'm not talking nonsense too often ^_^.
but many people do care about fidelity and spend good money on it, so IMO it would make sense for them to go the extra step and get a little something for measurements(a usb microphone, a good ADC, ...) to make sure they're not throwing away fidelity with little details and binary thinking.

 

[FrostyP]

For my tastes at least I find the HD 650 to be such a good one-size-fits-all set of cans I can't decide on what to get next

 

[makne]

For my tastes at least I find the HD 650 to be such a good one-size-fits-all set of cans I can't decide on what to get next

Try Focal Elear, or Beyer Amiron Home if the Elear is too much $$

 

[ben_r_]

LOL CRAZY that this thread is still going! I've still got my HD-650s and still LOVE them! Will probably never sell them.