[olor1n]

 

More likely that there aspects of the HD650's sound that he is not content with. I've owned the Bifrost and it is a fine dac. Not sure how the Valhalla pairs with the HD650 but going by the quality of Schiit's other components, I'm skeptical of any assertion that a Schiit amp could stifle the HD650 to such a degree.

Tbh, I cringe when people emphasise and use terms such as "full potential" - particularly for the HD650. There seems to be a trend in this thread to seed doubt into the minds of new HD650 owners - some of whom have already invested wisely in suitable dacs and amps. This is the HD650 we're talking about. Yes, it scales well when comparing a laptop's headphone jack to a dedicated desktop setup, but unequivocally stating that it is hampered by a certain pairing gives the false impression that certain desirable traits can only be discerned through specific setups. This is misleading and a disservice to those who could be enjoying this wonderful headphone for little expense, but are instead put off by, imo, very questionable assertions.

I totally agree that with the 650 "full potential" is impossible to define because it can scale up as far as you want to take it, however the poster was specifically wondering if his Schiit gear was getting him there. It does not. I never said it sounded bad or shouldn't be used by anybody. I have owned Schiit gear myself and it sounds very good. I'm sure my current system doesn't get there either. The truth is we do the best we can with what we can afford.

You may have misunderstood me. I disagree with the view that the HD650's full potential "is impossible to define because it can scale up as far as you want to take it". This is a relic of the past imo, when components were less abundant and affordable and finding the right chain for it required a more hefty investment.
 
The HD650 is not as demanding of upstream components as other ToTL headphones. I see people here who already have very good components for this headphone struck with "audionervosa" because they're being led to believe that there is more to unlock from these transducers. Those people are probably better served to consider other headphones that can provide what they find lacking in the HD650, rather than to roll through amps and other gear chasing dragons and unicorns.
 
edit: my "relic of the past" comment wasn't directed at the HD650, but rather the view that ToTL gear is required to unlock its full potential. Some have again misunderstood me, going by the posts below.

 

[donlin]

I did misunderstand you but I completely disagree with your assessment of the 650's potential.

 

[ButtUglyJeff]

Nothing excels to infinity.  But I enjoy the fact that every time I plug my HD650s to any amp/DAC combo up the food chain, I'm always rewarded.  That means I can enjoy my journey with the HD650s until I'm ready too go to a TOTL headphone...
 
That doesn't mean the right $300 combo can't move the HD650 to a very enjoyable level.  My HiFi-M8 makes the HD650 sing.....

 

[Shunrei]

Have you tried rolling any tubes in your Valhalla? Amazing things happen with the HD-650 with the right tubes.

 
My Valhalla is the first Valhalla, so i can't really rolling its tubes, which is sad.

I totally agree that with the 650 "full potential" is impossible to define because it can scale up as far as you want to take it, however the poster was specifically wondering if his Schiit gear was getting him there. It does not. I never said it sounded bad or shouldn't be used by anybody. I have owned Schiit gear myself and it sounds very good. I'm sure my current system doesn't get there either. The truth is we do the best we can with what we can afford.

 
 

I'm curious as to what would get them there.

 
 

I have just got the original Vali (I know, very late to the party) and am really enjoying them with my HD650'S. I have noticed though that there is huge variation between tracks and not always based on bit rates. Some tracks just seem a lot better recorded/mastered than others, sometimes even on the same album. No doubt I'll want to upgrade again soon but for the time being I'm just going to enjoy my current set up.

 
 

 
You may have misunderstood me. I disagree with the view that the HD650's full potential "is impossible to define because it can scale up as far as you want to take it". This is a relic of the past imo, when components were less abundant and affordable and finding the right chain for it required a more hefty investment.
 
The HD650 is not as demanding of upstream components as other ToTL headphones. I see people here who already have very good components for this headphone struck with "audionervosa" because they're being led to believe that there is more to unlock from these transducers. Those people are probably better served to consider other headphones that can provide what they find lacking in the HD650, rather than to roll through amps and other gear chasing dragons and unicorns.

650s may not be as demanding as new ToTL headphones, and though i know it's a relic of the past, it does scale better AFAIK with better amps, i wouldn't go as far as saying a certain thousand dollar amp is the best for 650s, but to me, its sound does change from amp to amp, though imo the amount of change one hears is very subjective, to me going from Asgard to Valhalla is a big improvement, even if i just hear a subtle change, i feel like some recording would sound better, or more alive. 
 
I heard that they scale better with better amp and to me Valhalla is the better amp for 650s, and so does other amp, there could be something better than Valhalla to 650s, something that would likely fix 650s flaw to some degree or more.

 

[donlin]

Nothing excels to infinity.  But I enjoy the fact that every time I plug my HD650s to any amp/DAC combo up the food chain, I'm always rewarded.  That means I can enjoy my journey with the HD650s until I'm ready too go to a TOTL headphone...

That doesn't mean the right $300 combo can't move the HD650 to a very enjoyable level.  My HiFi-M8 makes the HD650 sing.....

Excellent post, all very true.

 

[donlin]

My Valhalla is the first Valhalla, so i can't really rolling its tubes, which is sad.






650s may not be as demanding as new ToTL headphones, and though i know it's a relic of the past, it does scale better AFAIK with better amps, i wouldn't go as far as saying a certain thousand dollar amp is the best for 650s, but to me, its sound does change from amp to amp, though imo the amount of change one hears is very subjective, to me going from Asgard to Valhalla is a big improvement, even if i just hear a subtle change, i feel like some recording would sound better, or more alive. 

I heard that they scale better with better amp and to me Valhalla is the better amp for 650s, and so does other amp, there could be something better than Valhalla to 650s, something that would likely fix 650s flaw to some degree or more.

That's what I'm mainly trying to say is that while the asgard, valhalla etc. sound very good there is a wide variety of amps and sources that will get better sound out of the 650's. Also, while it is an old design, it's far from a relic. I lived with a variety of ToTL headphones over the past five years and came back to the 650 strictly because I enjoy the sound more not because I can't afford something else.

 

[JamieMcC]

fwiw & imo the HD650 does scale well up to a point where at which I find it just plateau's and there is simply no point in throwing extra money for subjective or unquantifiable gains in performance (but each to their own). To my mind as they scale they do not change their character its more a case of the areas which they are already competent in become more refined. Generally they sound pretty good on most systems and fantastic on others. Which is the polar opposite of some of the totl phones which can often have a touch of Jackal and Hyde about them and can sound substantially different in character depending on how they are amped.
 
Its very possible with the 650's for a modest sum, especially if buying used get within spitting distance of the over priced totl systems that cost a arm and a leg. They are never going to be able to compete toe to toe with the new flagships in ability but hey you can get real close for a fraction of the cost and after all its meant to be about enjoying the music.
 
The 650 has become a classic can, it will always sound very good but the performance of the competition at its price point is getting increasingly stronger.

 

[TeddyShot]

That's what I'm mainly trying to say is that while the asgard, valhalla etc. sound very good there is a wide variety of amps and sources that will get better sound out of the 650's.

But of course you start getting exponential diminishing returns.

 

[donlin]

But of course you start getting exponential diminishing returns.

Well, that's the old argument. Each person has to decide when "good enough" is.

 

[donlin]

fwiw & imo the HD650 does scale well up to a point where at which I find it just plateau's and there is simply no point in throwing extra money for subjective or unquantifiable gains in performance (but each to their own). To my mind as they scale they do not change their character its more a case of the areas which they are already competent in become more refined. Generally they sound pretty good on most systems and fantastic on others. Which is the polar opposite of some of the totl phones which can often have a touch of Jackal and Hyde about them and can sound substantially different in character depending on how they are amped.

Its very possible with the 650's for a modest sum, especially if buying used get within spitting distance of the over priced totl systems that cost a arm and a leg. They are never going to be able to compete toe to toe with the new flagships in ability but hey you can get real close for a fraction of the cost and after all its meant to be about enjoying the music.

The 650 has become a classic can, it will always sound very good but the performance of the competition at its price point is getting increasingly stronger.

I guess I haven't hit that plateau yet. In my experience they do go toe to toe with the flagships I have owned, however at that level it comes down to personal taste as none of them sound bad, just different.

 

[olor1n]

  fwiw & imo the HD650 does scale well up to a point where at which I find it just plateau's and there is simply no point in throwing extra money for subjective or unquantifiable gains in performance (but each to their own). To my mind as they scale they do not change their character its more a case of the areas which they are already competent in become more refined. Generally they sound pretty good on most systems and fantastic on others. Which is the polar opposite of some of the totl phones which can often have a touch of Jackal and Hyde about them and can sound substantially different in character depending on how they are amped.
 
[...]

 
Yup.

 

[JamieMcC]

I guess I haven't hit that plateau yet. In my experience they do go toe to toe with the flagships I have owned, however at that level it comes down to personal taste as none of them sound bad, just different.

 
This may well depend on how well you have amped your flagships

 and I do agree it is very much down to personal taste and how you the listener choose to enjoy listening to your music. After a wee dram or two most things sound pretty good to me!

 

[MattTCG]

"Scale" is probably a poor descriptor for the hd650. At least in the way that I see. For me, there are specifically certain amps, in particular, that allow the 650 to do what it does best. The 650 is not the last word in resolution, micro detail, expansive sound stage or ultimate sub bass extension. What the 650 does do exceptionally is offer a rich, organic and fatigue free experience for a very reasonable amount of cash. And maybe above all of those aspects the 650 is able to reproduce "tone" in an accurate and enjoyable way that allows me to connect to the music each and every time. There are very few headphones out there that can reproduce mids like the 650, irrespective of price.
 
It certainly doesn't take a mega buck amp to get me to this place with the 650. I just like to pick amps that play to the strengths of the 650 and allow it to do what it does best. Some of the best of these amps include:
 
*BHC with or without speedball depending on your own preference of signature and tendency to tube roll.
 
*Valhalla 2 full OTL without any diy required
 
*Woo wa3 also OTL but spendy unless you buy used
 
These are the amps that I've owned personally that play to the strengths of the 650 and give me the best experience.
 
Other good amps that don't quite get me there:
 
*lyr & lyr 2-both very good and respond nicely to tube rolling but most of the power they generate is not the best fit for the 650 and is better suited for planar mags
 
*Asgard 2-pretty good amp, nice and clean signature but the "tone" is not quite there for me with the 650
 
*Magni-squeaky clean and thin to my ears, worst for tone adding a slight "metallic" flavor to the signature
 
*Magni 2 uber-nice improvement over the original and gets rid of the "metallic" sound. Still somewhat thin for my taste if only slightly, great bargain for the money. Still at the end of the day not a top choice for the 650
 
ymmv...

 

[donlin]

This may well depend on how well you have amped your flagships :evil:  and I do agree it is very much down to personal taste and how you the listener choose to enjoy listening to your music. After a wee dram or two most things sound pretty good to me!

Ha! Very good, one's frame of mind has the most to do with it.

 

[donlin]

"Scale" is probably a poor descriptor for the hd650. At least in the way that I see. For me, there are specifically certain amps, in particular, that allow the 650 to do what it does best. The 650 is not the last word in resolution, micro detail, expansive sound stage or ultimate sub bass extension. What the 650 does do exceptionally is offer a rich, organic and fatigue free experience for a very reasonable amount of cash. And maybe above all of those aspects the 650 is able to reproduce "tone" in an accurate and enjoyable way that allows me to connect to the music each and every time. There are very few headphones out there that can reproduce mids like the 650, irrespective of price.

Very true. It's not the best in any certain area, just at making music sound alive.