[Tilpo]

I personally find that the HD 650's are fairly neutral.
Maybe it's because I got used to the sound signature, but honestly I think they are fairly neutral.

Of course you can have more neutral cans, but don;t forget that one man's 'neutral' is another man's 'bright'. I think that what you consider neutral is something I consider bright.

I think the only way to measure if a headphone is neutral is to have a perfect recording of an instrument, or musical piece played through the headphone in question. The compare this side by side with a minimal delay to the real thing.
Seems pretty hard to do well in practice, don't you think?

 

[ac500]

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[Austin Morrow]

Quote:

I take back anything I said about the HD650 treble being "lacking".
 
HD650 easily beats the DT880 treble quality, no question IMO. So if DT880 has "good" treble, then HD650 is not lacking at all in this league of headphones. I will reserve final judgement though until the DT880 has more burn in time.
 
SRH940 treble quality is still a step ahead of both DT880 and HD650 though, easily. Sorry

IMO, the DT880 is rather thin sounding up top. Sure, it has good treble, but can be very hot at times and not as smooth as I'd like it to be. That's why people enjoy the HD650 so much more than a lot of the other headphones. The treble isn't hot, and it's certainly not thin sounding or "lifeless" as I'd like to put it.

 

[olor1n]

Quote:

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LOL! Did you decide to take back your previous take back?

 

[ac500]

Haha no... I decided that I need to let my DT880s burn in before spreading my conclusion about them. So far it hasn't changed, but I think to be fair I need to let it burn in for a bit.
 
My "take back" was mostly observing that if the HD650 treble is better than the neutral/trebly DT880, then it's not "lacking" within its class, it's just that I was spoiled by the incredible treble of the SRH940.
 
Anyway we'll see what happens after burn in. Nothing yet and I kind of doubt anything will change, since as I read, the DT880 doesn't burn in much according to some. If I'm right, then the DT880 is overrated overall, and I understand completely the general consensus that the HD650 is better all-around. But like I said I thought it would be a better idea to wait it out before jumping to pre-burn-in conclusions.

 

[Austin Morrow]

Did you get the DT880's to fill the void of the HD650's lacking treble/smooth treble response? I recently traded my HiFiMAN HE-300's for a pair of AKG Q701's for that exact purpose. I absolutely adore my HD650's but sometimes I find their treble a bit too smooth and slow for some of the other music genre's I listen to like fast paced rock and my favorite dubstep. If the Q701 is as speedy and resolved as everyone says it is, I'll have two headphones perfect for almost all of my genres. 

 

[ac500]

Well I had SRH940s to fill this gap, but the SRH940s are too small for my head and broke as a result :O. Unfortunately... I'm finding the DT880s a bit uncomfortable too since they're also too small. Extended fully, DT880s are just a tiny but too small for me. I tried AKG 270s or some old model from AKG and they literally did not fit on my head - as in, they didn't reach my ears at all.
 
The only headphone I've ever worn that's more comfortable than an HD650 is the HD800.

 

[Austin Morrow]

Quote:

Well I had SRH940s to fill this gap, but the SRH940s are too small for my head and broke as a result :O. Unfortunately... I'm finding the DT880s a bit uncomfortable too since they're also too small. Extended fully, DT880s are just a tiny but too small for me. I tried AKG 270s or some old model from AKG and they literally did not fit on my head - as in, they didn't reach my ears at all.
 
The only headphone I've ever worn that's more comfortable than an HD650 is the HD800.

Yes! Finally someone agrees with me. Beyerdynamic, HiFiMan, and almost every other company that makes rounded ear cups need to stop, they're just to small and the Beyerdynamic ones start to become quite annoying after a little while. I think Sennhesier nailed their headphones with the oval design. It first perfectly on my head. Our ears aren't circular, they take more of a oval type shape, no? And yes, the HD800 is an extremely comfortable headphone. I have a small head and it will be interesting to see wether the AKG Q701 is small enough for my head considering the fact that almost all of AKG's headphones have rather large ear cups.

 

[jtaylor991]

Let us know what you think. I'd love a little bit of a DT880 vs SRH940 vs 650 if you could. I kinda see what you mean with the wooden box thing, but that's not quite the sound I'd say, it sounds a bit dramatic. The 650s have detail for acoustic music at least for me (other genres not so much really) but it always felt like something was missing. Drastically upgrading my DAC from a portable to the PS DLIII helped a TON, brought me from so boring I think I'll sell 'em to these are kinda nice, but still something was missing, maybe it really was this treble issue and my lowly DAC just wasn't helping if you know what I mean.
 
Quote:

No, but from everything I've heard it's still laid back in terms of the upper frequencies being congested. If the only difference is sound signature, I can fix that with EQ. But EQ can't increase the actual detail. I've heard that the whole HD6x0 line suffers from the same core congestion in the upper frequencies (10 and 15+khz) that make it effectively less detailed for instruments that use those frequencies (violin, guitar, etc.).
 
In fact I'm starting to think many people like this congestion, being the very reason they find them so smooth. Similar to how people like tubes -- they literally congest the sound signature intentionally. While I will be keeping my HD650s as nice easy to listen headphones, I don't like congestion in general. I have very sensitive hearing (I've never done a real test, but while some people can only hear fingers quietly rubbing together a few feet away from their ear, I can hear it easily across a large room), and I like to have hi-fi music, and congested is not hifi. That's another reason I find tube amps stupid, in the context of hifi (and yes, people always report SS less congested and colored, than tubes, from what I see -- correct me if I'm wrong). Tubes are fine for intentional coloration if that's what you're after, but I'm not on head-fi for colored sound, I'm here for hifi.
 
People say the HD600 is neutral but FR graphs show quite the opposite, with the HD650 being more neutral with perhaps more bass. But the problem with the HD650 is not too much bass, it's the lack of quality treble. I don't think the HD650 bass is much emphasized if at all -- rather the lack of treble makes it (incorrectly) seem like there should be less bass, but that just would give a upside-down smiley face FR.
 
The lack of strength in treble frequencies is not a problem because EQ can fix that and I'm not a no-EQ purist. While EQing the HD650 does make it sound much more natural and actually realistic for violin, guitar, etc. (it removes the feeling you're in a wooden box listening to the outside), it doesn't fix the subtle congestion aka detail aka sound quality in those frequencies, versus for example an SRH940's highs.
 
I've ordered a DT880 which will be my all-around neutral headphone where treble matters, hopefully. My SRH940 worked but my head is so large it broke the SRH940. I kind of doubt the DT880 will be as good with bass as my HD650 or as comfortable (I got to try a DT990 and it was a bit less comfortable than HD650s), so I don't ever see myself selling the HD650s. But I like to at least have an alternate headphone that does treble right. I may have to wait until HD800s though until I get one that does bass/mids/treble all excellently.

 

 

[ac500]

I'll do what I can but the way it's shaping up, it seems I'm not really liking the DT880 a whole lot except for the sound signature (flat).
 
It's not had that long to burn in yet so I'm gonna take some more time, but I don't think it's as good as HD650s all-around. And I know for a fact that as of now, there are songs the SRH940 renders absolutely brilliantly that sound lifeless with the DT880. I'm not hearing all that much detail in the DT880 to be honest (due to the 10+khz which I'm not impressed by on the DT880) -- of course the lower treble strength makes the DT880s sound more detailed at first glance but it's not any more real detail than HD650s as far as I can tell.
 
I still stand by that the SRH940 is incredibly good in upper treble and detail, and it does beat the HD650 in those area. The DT880 currently does not... but we'll see how burn-in effects that.
 
What I was saying earlier which I edited out was that the HD650 does not lack treble quality. The SRH940 is just brilliantly good at it, more so than the 650 (but not by a whole lot, but it's apparent).
 
I wish I could compare the DT880 vs SRH940 directly but the SRH940 is being fixed and returned to my address, and I'm elsewhere for the holidays presently. I could keep the DT880s just barely by the time I return and still be in time for the return policy, however if I'm not floored by the DT880 quality like I was of the SRH940, then I can't say I can rationalize keeping it. Also the DT880s are uncomfortable and too small for my head. I'm probably going to have to stick to comparing them pairwise.

 

[Tetsuma]

Quote:

I personally find that the HD 650's are fairly neutral.
Maybe it's because I got used to the sound signature, but honestly I think they are fairly neutral.
Of course you can have more neutral cans, but don;t forget that one man's 'neutral' is another man's 'bright'. I think that what you consider neutral is something I consider bright.

Then one of those men don't know what they're talking about, or isn't experienced.
At any rate, the HD650s apparently sounded bad when neutral and were given notches at 5khz and 16khz for that 'intimate' feeling.
 
The main article is at onhifi.
 
 

 

[Rawrbington]

i have 990/600
and want another pair that will mate well with my WA2(so relatively high impedance).
i like a bit of bass, but still some balance.
listen to everything, rock, electronic, indie, stoner rock, rap.
like the soundstage of open  cans.
 
is this the can for me?

 

[Tetsuma]

Quote:

i have 990/600
and want another pair that will mate well with my WA2(so relatively high impedance).
i like a bit of bass, but still some balance.
listen to everything, rock, electronic, indie, stoner rock, rap.
like the soundstage of open  cans.
 
is this the can for me?

Probably suite you just fine.

 

[SP Wild]

 
Quote:

No, but from everything I've heard it's still laid back in terms of the upper frequencies being congested. If the only difference is sound signature, I can fix that with EQ. But EQ can't increase the actual detail. I've heard that the whole HD6x0 line suffers from the same core congestion in the upper frequencies (10 and 15+khz) that make it effectively less detailed for instruments that use those frequencies (violin, guitar, etc.).
 
In fact I'm starting to think many people like this congestion, being the very reason they find them so smooth. Similar to how people like tubes -- they literally congest the sound signature intentionally. While I will be keeping my HD650s as nice easy to listen headphones, I don't like congestion in general. I have very sensitive hearing (I've never done a real test, but while some people can only hear fingers quietly rubbing together a few feet away from their ear, I can hear it easily across a large room), and I like to have hi-fi music, and congested is not hifi. That's another reason I find tube amps stupid, in the context of hifi (and yes, people always report SS less congested and colored, than tubes, from what I see -- correct me if I'm wrong). Tubes are fine for intentional coloration if that's what you're after, but I'm not on head-fi for colored sound, I'm here for hifi.
 
People say the HD600 is neutral but FR graphs show quite the opposite, with the HD650 being more neutral with perhaps more bass. But the problem with the HD650 is not too much bass, it's the lack of quality treble. I don't think the HD650 bass is much emphasized if at all -- rather the lack of treble makes it (incorrectly) seem like there should be less bass, but that just would give a upside-down smiley face FR.
 
The lack of strength in treble frequencies is not a problem because EQ can fix that and I'm not a no-EQ purist. While EQing the HD650 does make it sound much more natural and actually realistic for violin, guitar, etc. (it removes the feeling you're in a wooden box listening to the outside), it doesn't fix the subtle congestion aka detail aka sound quality in those frequencies, versus for example an SRH940's highs.
 
I've ordered a DT880 which will be my all-around neutral headphone where treble matters, hopefully. My SRH940 worked but my head is so large it broke the SRH940. I kind of doubt the DT880 will be as good with bass as my HD650 or as comfortable (I got to try a DT990 and it was a bit less comfortable than HD650s), so I don't ever see myself selling the HD650s. But I like to at least have an alternate headphone that does treble right. I may have to wait until HD800s though until I get one that does bass/mids/treble all excellently.

 
The HD800s are what you want, Sen desgned these headphones for people like you.  People that that love the 650 love it for how it portrays midrange, for this to occur the treble must not mask it and needs to be shelved somewhat - there is no way around this.
 
You seem very adept at picking out differences in treble, You also seem to focus on treble differences and at any rate will become an expert in treble in no time.  The 650 thread is no place for treble happy listeners.
 
The HD800 is the best headphone I ever heard, you'll love them!
 
 

 

[LugBug1]

Quote:

 


 
The HD800s are what you want, Sen designed these headphones for people like you.  People that that love the 650 love it for how it portrays midrange, for this to occur the treble must not mask it and needs to be shelved somewhat - there is no way around this.
 
You seem very adept at picking out differences in treble, You also seem to focus on treble differences and at any rate will become an expert in treble in no time.  The 650 thread is no place for treble happy listeners.
 
The HD800 is the best headphone I ever heard, you'll love them!
 
 

Or fatiguing treble listeners!
 
Wouldn't have said the the treble of the 650's is shelved.. only in comparison to treble emphasized phones.
 
I think you can spend a lot of time on here searching for a perfect headphone to suit your wants, and you can spend a fortune. You can have a headphone for bass, one for treble, one for midrange etc. But in my experience, the 650 is a great reference phone that can be tweaked to your liking from what it is being fed. It's like a blank canvas. Scalability is often mentioned, but that doesn't mean spending more each time. A decent quality Dac or amp can transform a headphone like the 650's into something very special. If sharper, brighter sounding treble is what you are after then the 650's can have this. Try silver interconnects and upgrade cable (sorry upstateguy) for e.g. I've heard a great difference in treble, both in extension and hard/softness etc with different Dacs, especially depending on the power source and the 650's are very responsive to this.  
 
My point is, if you like the 650's sound but just want a few tweaks here and there, you're better off fine tuning your rig to fit the bill. As the 650's IMO are very adaptable.