[TsukiNick]

It started with me sort of calling BS on how this headphone needs some 400$+ Amp to reach it's full potential when an O2 or Magni will sound the same in quality in a double blind test.

People waste tons of money trying to get more out of this headphone. If the headphone isn't good enough with a Magni for you I really think another headphone is what you need. Like maybe they should be trying an HD600 not a Burson Soloist (Not to pick on that amp I'm just talking about expensive amps in general)

 

[Wildcatsare1]

It started with me sort of calling BS on how this headphone needs some 400$+ Amp to reach it's full potential when an O2 or Magni will sound the same in quality in a double blind test.

Missed that, it's an absolutely incorrect assumption on your part however. I have personal experience with the Fiio E17/09k, Music Fidelity XCan v.3, Schiit Magni, Valhalla 1, and Lyr 2, as well as the iFi iDSD Nano. Underpowered: E17 and the iDSD, good to very good: E09k, Music Fidelity, Magni; excellent: Lyr 2 and Valhalla.

I am guessing you weren't around, but NWGuy is not a new phenomenon in the late 70's into the 80's we had Julian Hirsch and his disciples, just like paisley and bell bottoms, and yesterday's chili, stuff returns. The 650 does scale, is a resistant load, so there is a synergy with OTL amps, is a dark headphone that some like with SS amps that would be considered bright on more revealing cans, your O2 is a good example. You probably would be served well by getting out and experiencing more/better equipment, plus with age and more experience you will/should develop an understanding of how much you really don't know, and probably be more hesitant to make absolute pronouncements. Cheers

 

[TsukiNick]

Maybe I'd be convinced with some measurements from different amps with the headphones being recorded. The same has been done with speakers and people haven't been able to tell a low end AVR from multi thousand dollar setups. Other than that it's all word of mouth.

However I do think tubes would likely color the sound but correctly built solid states amplifiers will sound the same as long as there isn't huge output impedance differences or weird filters.

It isn't like I haven't tried multiple sources. And there is a diminishing return, so if I've tried a FiiO X3s built in amp, FiiO E12 Amp, Schiit Magni, Multiple AV receivers with high output impedance, and a few soundcards and they all sounded pretty much the same other than the receivers due to slightly sloppier bass from the low damping factor I don't think I could tell a Magni from one of your oh so elite amplifiers. And the only thing that will come with age is hearing loss starting at high frequencies so maybe I'll start preferring Grado when that comes.

And for one of my posts earlier there is the hintingly condescending way of telling people they need better DACs and other equipment you see on these forums.

 

[SunshineReggae]

Missed that, it's an absolutely incorrect assumption on your part however. I have personal experience with the Fiio E17/09k, Music Fidelity XCan v.3, Schiit Magni, Valhalla 1, and Lyr 2, as well as the iFi iDSD Nano. Underpowered: E17 and the iDSD, good to very good: E09k, Music Fidelity, Magni; excellent: Lyr 2 and Valhalla.

I am guessing you weren't around, but NWGuy is not a new phenomenon in the late 70's into the 80's we had Julian Hirsch and his disciples, just like paisley and bell bottoms, and yesterday's chili, stuff returns. The 650 does scale, is a resistant load, so there is a synergy with OTL amps, is a dark headphone that some like with SS amps that would be considered bright on more revealing cans, your O2 is a good example. You probably would be served well by getting out and experiencing more/better equipment, plus with age and more experience you will/should develop an understanding of how much you really don't know, and probably be more hesitant to make absolute pronouncements. Cheers

 
The 650 does scale - that's the question! Saying it does not make it true.
It's a resistant load - only says something about power requirements, nothing about inherent 'synergy' with a certain type of amp
A dark headphone - yeah
Bright ss amps - most ss amps are just flat, not bright. The O2 is not bright, it's flat. They may be bright compared to tube amps that roll off the treble, but that's tube amps being tube amps, not ss amps being bright.
 
I am all for providing proof in the way of the HD650 scaling but that is not evidence, that is just a bit of talk that you did (no offense). I accept it is your opinion, but certainly does not state a fact.

 

[icomrade]

Maybe I'd be convinced with some measurements from different amps with the headphones being recorded. The same has been done with speakers and people haven't been able to tell a low end AVR from multi thousand dollar setups. Other than that it's all word of mouth.

However I do think tubes would likely color the sound but correctly built solid states amplifiers will sound the same as long as there isn't huge output impedance differences or weird filters.

It isn't like I haven't tried multiple sources. And there is a diminishing return, so if I've tried a FiiO X3s built in amp, FiiO E12 Amp, Schiit Magni, Multiple AV receivers with high output impedance, and a few soundcards and they all sounded pretty much the same other than the receivers due to slightly sloppier bass from the low damping factor I don't think I could tell a Magni from one of your oh so elite amplifiers. And the only thing that will come with age is hearing loss starting at high frequencies so maybe I'll start preferring Grado when that comes.

What do you think the common denominator is in the setups you've tried? I'd say it's poor amp matching. I've tried my HD650s with my Aventage 3010, they sounded exactly like on my magni, bad. As far as receivers go I don't think you can do much better than that. OTL tube amps are completely different beasts, there's so much more to amps than output power/impedance.

 

[TsukiNick]

Tube sound is just more distortion giving it a color. The magni should be great for tje HD650s due to it's "forward bright presentation" that so many speak of. So that it "speeds up" my headphone balancing out.

And I think if you think a headphone sounds BAD on one amp and think it's an entirely different headphone on another I am going to have to say that's delusional. And honestly I cannot have a rational argument nor even conversation with someone I feel is delusional. It's sort of like trying to tell someone to stop being religious (note I am not trying to call religious people delusional I'm trying to make a simple analogy)

If you want to change the sound of your headphone just change it's position on your head you'll see a noticeable change right away.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

^What you refer to as hearsay is subjective listening, combined with objective measurement provides a complete picture of the sound of a given component. Tubes, op amps, caps, various output devices can "color" the sound, or not. Equipment Designers create amps, both SS and tube, that "are euphonic", "have the house sound", pretty much creating the SQ they desire. Within real world constraints, cost, heat, size, space, efficiency, etc., etc. there are amps that do sound alike, just as there amps that sound quite different. Expense doesn't always equal superior sound, but it is much easier to design a great sounding product without cost constraints, the beauty of giant killers out there, Schiit and MrSpeakers Alpha Dogs being two of my favorites. I know that there is so much stuff out there I would love to listen too, that I have a lot to learn, and my opinions are subject to change with greater experience.

 

[TMRaven]

We don't need anymore nwavdouche minions roaming around these parts.  They always stink up the forums with their sensationalist assumptions.  Don't be one of those guys, Tsukinick.

 

[alv4426]

+1
Quote:

  We don't need anymore nwavdouche minions roaming around these parts.  They always stink up the forums with their sensationalist assumptions.  Don't be one of those guys, Tsukinick.

 

[TsukiNick]

Alright I'll stay away with my sensationalism? I didn't feel stating my opinion that all amps are likely going to sound the same was "douchelike"

And I have no idea who that guy is. Thanks for assuming I'm a minion and can't think for myself though.

 

[TMRaven]

I didn't say you were a minion of his.  I said don't be a minion of his.

 

[TsukiNick]

Alright thank you for clarifying I think I'll call it a night and agree to disagree if you'd all be kind to do the same than that would be just MAGNIficent. (Yeah needed to end the night with some bad pun?)

But I did look him up briefly after yoy mentioned him and giving out a free design for an amplifier and DAC actually seems good...but I guess he did something bad.

 

[icomrade]

Tube sound is just more distortion giving it a color. The magni should be great for tje HD650s due to it's "forward bright presentation" that so many speak of. So that it "speeds up" my headphone balancing out.

And I think if you think a headphone sounds BAD on one amp and think it's an entirely different headphone on another I am going to have to say that's delusional.

Transistors generally have more distortion than vacuum tubes. Tubes will exhibit microphonics whereas transistors, generally, will not. Will it be distinguishable? Probably not. http://www.theaudioarchive.com/TAA_Resources_Tubes_versus_Solid_State.htm
 
I A/B compared my valhalla 2 with a Emotiva XDA-2 (I ensured the volume measured to the same levels) and the Emotiva consistently reproduced duller upper-end and less-lean bass with both an SE846 and HD650. In addition the whole thing sounded a bit congested with the HD650, on the SE846 there was no real difference in this regard. I have also tested it with the Oppo BDP-105 (the basis of the HA-1) and noticed significantly more enjoyable, accurate, and less congested sound than my M&M stack. I had sold my my Magni before receiving my Valhalla 2 so I was unable to A/B it with my Magni and XDA-2. There are definitely no delusions in the differences between proper and improper amp pairing with the HD650.
 
Edit: I didn't appreciate being called delusional (obviously you edited your post since I quoted you to flat out call me delusional). Regardless of whether you were offended by my previous post (I did not intend it that way, if you were I apologize) it does not give you the right to flat out offend and call a fellow head-fi member delusional. Name calling is low, especially in debates, I'd appreciate an apology but do not expect one, thanks.

 

[castleofargh]

  +1
Quote:

  We don't need anymore nwavdouche minions roaming around these parts.  They always stink up the forums with their sensationalist assumptions.  Don't be one of those guys, Tsukinick.

the guy says something meaningless and insulting using some lame caricature. and you +1 his post. seriously?
I understand people having different opinions, I even understand people unable to think rationally(yeah I have a mother), but that I just don't understand.

 

[alv4426]

Its definitely OK to have an opinion even one that is different and state it, its not OK IMO to act trollish (not saying he was but was close) in here a lot like the so called "minions" once did and still do once in awhile around here. Say what you want to say but don't repeat the same thing over and over saying nothing new while also bringing others opinions down. That is what I understood from the post and why I +1.