[subtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif plus the 4070's use wood! the built quality of these and the O2's are as good as it gets! Serious looking gear, unlike others.... Senn's price control extend the value of the commodity by not letting room for the consumer to inscribe a 'real worth value', which according to many, including me, it should be about half of the asking price.

It's obvious you're biased, seeing as though you take any available opportunity to knock the HD800, but get real. The build quality of those two is nowhere near the HD800, especially the OII. If one puts aside their preference of color, and actually holds the two in their hands, 9 out of 10 times the common person knowing nothing about headphones would choose the HD800.

 

[Gamerphile]

I know the PR and marketing departments of some of these manufactures as an insider and I can only say one thing: Stop believing all the colored PR and realize that even most if not all very high end products are poorly made if you ask a good professional mechanical engineer. Its just not possible to make real good quality stuff to price you guys want so the engineers are pushed to lower the manufacturing costs even thought they nor the management want like to do poor work (at least around here in north-Europa we take much pride in quality stuff). And yes prices compared to manufacturing costs sucks but its simply a fact that someone has to take the risk stocking items etc. and the consumer has to pay for that. If the difference between the price the manufacture sells the item for and the list sales price is too little the dealers and store chains simply will not sell it since they have to account for so many things like refunds, logistics, low sales etc.. And in the real world no company would ever be allowed by its marketing department to start putting a lot of money into developing consumer or pro-sumer product unless its seen as guaranteed to sell to the consumer marked retailer chains etc.
Ohh and there is a lot of conservatism in this industry since a lot of the money is made on conservative business to buisness markets like health-care, broadcasting/media, reception, call-center, government and flight related sectors. Many aren't simply ready to understand the new fast changing modern consumer segment thing that all the crap and cheap child labor made colorfull headsets from the Mobil industry etc. has forced the headphone sector into.

Let me end with this: I've heard voices from many high level management people in the real headphone manufacturing community (the onces we love and care about - not bose or what ever skullcandy plastics that has nothing to do with headphones) that they would like to change things and often try pushing new evolutionary things when starting new projects but they get turned down, again and again, due all the other interest, business sectors and relations these companies have and don't want to risk loosing. It will take a while, a long while, before us on the inside get thought to these people and get them to realize its already a loosing battle if they continue down the current path.

 

[fenixdown110]

I agree, that keeping it sold at retail, will ensure quality of the HD800.

 

[rds]

I agree with these ideas except for one thing. That is the part where you blame the consumer for companies "having" to manufacture in China. The reality is they manufacture there because it increases their profit margins. Their profit margins might already be huge, but never underestimate corporate greed. If child labor or quasi slave labor will save another $1 and they can get away with it guess what they're going to do?

Do you think Calvin Klein "needs" to use child labor because their customers demand that a cotton sweater only cost a mere $200?

 

[GuyDebord]

Quote:

Originally Posted by subtle /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's obvious you're biased, seeing as though you take any available opportunity to knock the HD800, but get real. The build quality of those two is nowhere near the HD800, especially the OII. If one puts aside their preference of color, and actually holds the two in their hands, 9 out of 10 times the common person knowing nothing about headphones would choose the HD800.

Real Metal and Real Leather perfectly handcrafted vs Real Plastic and Real Faux Suede precisely machined. hmmm..... who exactly would choose one over the other? and this is not even considering the looks....

 

[IPodPJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlosak /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's interesting how nearly everyone in this thread laments over the price of HD800 and how overpriced they are. I would even pay $2000 for them. They are that good for me and I consider them a bargain at the current price. As for Beyerdynamic T1 - all the pre-order prices I've seen here in Czech Republic are higher than for HD800. Let's see if they drop or not...

I agree. They are worth every penny I paid for them and then some. In a true high-end system, they are the most accurate dynamic headphone on the market. I hope more people are able to get to meets to hear what they are capable of.

Many months ago a bunch of you said the price would come down, and I said I knew it wouldn't. As you can see to this day, they will not lower the price on a product. When you place a lower price on a product, it yields a perceived lower quality. It shouldn't be that way of course, but it is. But in the case of these phones, there is no questioning their quality. If you prefer a less detailed phone, there are plenty to choose from.

What is unacceptable is a company like Grado charging $1700 for a PS1000, which doesn't include any new technology, is still built like a Grado, and still sounds like a typical Grado (which to me is a very bad thing).

And by the way, excellent posts Georgl.

 

[Georgl]

Thanks back for bearing my English-experiments

@subtle
You had the chance to compare the O2 with the HD800? What was their problem regarding build quality? The images of them looked fine...

@Gamerphile
I had the chance to work with a high-end-brand and was shocked by their standards besides all the great marketing and shiny surfaces...
I have to agree and it feels very much the same with Sennheiser - the last models manufactured in Wedemark (including their own mechanical production) in the early 90s are superior to many successors from various brands today. Marketing, cost cutting and outsourcing to lower production standards has limited the efforts of the engineers tremendously.

But I've spoken to them, Sennheiser invited the hifi-forum to a factory-visit and we agree: the engineers got much more freedom for the HD800 and seemed really happy. Mr. Sennheiser (Sennheiser is still a family-company) was willing to give them lots of money and resources to develop their new reference.

@rds
That's difficult to say from the "outsiders-perspective". Strong brands propably are just greedy and want to satisfy their sharholders at any cost. But others are victims of the dealers. Their contracts are brutal, they lower their prices every year, whether it's justified by improved production/design technology or not. Many German high-end-manufacturers left the consumer-market for that reason and focus on defense, medical, space or other professional segments... Just like Neumann/Sennheiser-microphones are state-of-the-art "Made in Germany". If Sennheiser wouldn't have agreed to lower prices, they wouldn't have been sold, period. And most consumers don't know the difference between Sennheiser/Beyer and Philips/Sony/DrDre/Bose - they buy marketing and shiny design...

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif Real Metal and Real Leather perfectly handcrafted vs Real Plastic and Real Faux Suede precisely machined. hmmm..... who exactly would choose one over the other? and this is not even considering the looks....

Why do I care whether my headphones are REAL this or that? All I care about is sound and comfort. I would choose the headphone that satisfies those criteria best (in my opinion) without consideration of the materials used to get there.

 

[Gamerphile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Georgl /img/forum/go_quote.gif @Gamerphile I had the chance to work with a high-end-brand and was shocked by their standards besides all the great marketing and shiny surfaces... I have to agree and it feels very much the same with Sennheiser - the last models manufactured in Wedemark (including their own mechanical production) in the early 90s are superior to many successors from various brands today. Marketing, cost cutting and outsourcing to lower production standards has limited the efforts of the engineers tremendously. But I've spoken to them, Sennheiser invited the hifi-forum to a factory-visit and we agree: the engineers got much more freedom for the HD800 and seemed really happy. Mr. Sennheiser (Sennheiser is still a family-company) was willing to give them lots of money and resources to develop their new reference.

Yup was just at this Christmas party this Friday and thats exactly what I heard jalousie filled voices talk about...

BTW no I don't think its the consumers "fault" but every where I go even in Denmark where everyone has a good living standard people keep using low quality products that really suck but are only 5-10% cheaper so people in general masses that needs to change something are not by any stretch thinking enough about what they buy.

 

[GuyDebord]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why do I care whether my headphones are REAL this or that? All I care about is sound and comfort. I would choose the headphone that satisfies those criteria best (in my opinion) without consideration of the materials used to get there.

I understand your argument. However my reply was made to counter argue the post of Subtle. Still, this thread is about price/value ratio and control, and I believe materials and execution become an important consideration at this price.

 

[haloxt]

Price control is enforced to ensure that resellers get a good profit. Many resellers just won't carry your products if the margins are too low or worse, if competitor resellers are undercutting them, in which case it'd be better for their reputation if they didn't carry the product at all. Can't blame Sennheiser for wanting to protect their buyers. Can't blame distributors for competing for a bigger piece of the market. Can't blame consumers for wanting discounts. Personally, I blame Adam Smith.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif Real Metal and Real Leather perfectly handcrafted vs Real Plastic and Real Faux Suede precisely machined. hmmm..... who exactly would choose one over the other? and this is not even considering the looks....

I have both headphones and prefer the feel of HD-800.

Most people have a bias that tells them that plastic is "cheap." I believe that you should use the best material for the job. Anything else is jewelry.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif Real Metal and Real Leather perfectly handcrafted vs Real Plastic and Real Faux Suede precisely machined. hmmm..... who exactly would choose one over the other? and this is not even considering the looks....

I actually agree with you.. Was never impressed with the build quality of the HD800.. Lets compare the build quality of the HP1/2 to the PS1000.. A tank compared to a toy..

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have both headphones and prefer the feel of HD-800. Most people have a bias that tells them that plastic is "cheap." I believe that you should use the best material for the job. Anything else is jewelry.

Might be true.. I just like headphones made with metal..

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why do I care whether my headphones are REAL this or that? All I care about is sound and comfort. I would choose the headphone that satisfies those criteria best (in my opinion) without consideration of the materials used to get there.

Cause you paid 1,400?