[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl He hears what he hears. You can argue that *you* don't hear it that way, but you can't insist his own self-reported impressions are *wrong* or "insipid".

Well, actually he hears what he hears from the stock HD 650 through the OBH-11 (of which for some unknown reason you're convinced that it sounds decent). If the amp really colors the sound as heavily as reported (and moreover expectable from the high output impedance), he hasn't the right impression from the HD 650's capabilities. Unless you're saying the HD 650 is so bad that amps don't matter anyway.

 

[markl]

Quote:

(of which for some unknown reason you're convinced that it sounds decent).

You mean when I said this?-- Quote:

As for #1, they may have a point; while I've *never heard it*, I have *read* (time and again it seems) that the OBH-11 is a somewhat lack-luster headamp. A source like your Meridian surely deserves a better amp than the Creek.

Quote:

he hasn't the right impression from the HD 650's capabilities.

People shouldn't be brow-beaten into liking (or disliking) any piece of gear. They should, however, be given alternative points of view and additional information that says "beware of some Senn fans who will suggest expensive fixes, for what *might* be for you an unfixable situation-- you may simply not like them." Quote:

Unless you're saying the HD 650 is so bad that amps don't matter anyway.

Of course amps matter, I agree with a source like that, he should get a better amp regardless of what headphone he ends up with. However, IMO, the degree of dissatisfaction he expressed toward them certainly seems to be on the level that no amp swap or cable swap is going to totally magically fix.


I'm out, said what I wanted to say. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some sewing to do....

 

[Canman]

Jess,

I will offer some simple advice:

You can see that the Sennheiser sound causes much debate. Some love it, others don't. I happen to feel that it is a technically excellent headphone, but the headphone has always had a love it or hate it history. The same arguement always ensues.

Concerning amps and cables, my belief is that the amp has a large effect on the performance of the headphone. An aftermarket cable has much less of an effect. It can improve performance, but will not change the overall characteristic of a headphone. Make an aftermarket cable your last upgrade if you want to consider it. As far as the amp goes, the headphone is similar to your speakers. An amp that is technically mismatched is going to make your speakers sound less than optimal.

The other issue is burn-in. The headphone will open up after some time. Others have gone through this process too.

The only way to really tell now is to go ahead and listen to some different equipment with your own ears. There should be places in NYC to audition different headphones and gear, and there are also plenty of Head-Fiers in the area who may be able to help you out. Try to get to a Head-Fi meet. It's the best way to get a taste of a wide variety of gear and meet some great people.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl You mean when I said this?--

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl He has a *decent* system (surely you'd give him that, JaZZ), one that *should* be able to show the HD650 more or less as it is, at least enough to make a pretty fair judgement about it.

Actually no, I don't agree at all on the decent system as long as a 220-ohm-output amp with a bad reputation in terms of synergy with Senns is in the signal chain. I'm not surprised that you'd like to see and display it otherwise though.

Quote:

People shouldn't be brow-beaten into liking (or disliking) any piece of gear. They should, however, be given alternative points of view and additional information that says "beware of some Senn fans who will suggest expensive fixes, for what *might* be for you an unfixable situation -- you may simply not like them."

Nobody has excluded the possibility that he might end up not liking the HD 650. But even the HD 650 (!) deserves a fair chance under decently neutral circumstances. As to expensive fixes: all that's been proposed is to try a better matching amp, and even you think his source (although not the headphone, obviously...) deserves a better amp. So what? And as to the Senn fans brow-beating other head-fiers into liking a piece of gear: I think that's your pleasurably accentuated subjective view.

 

[PeterR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl You mean when I said this?--

No, I think he meant when you said this:

Quote:

He has a *decent* system (surely you'd give him that, JaZZ), one that *should* be able to show the HD650 more or less as it is

Quote:

However, IMO, the degree of dissatisfaction he expressed toward them certainly seems to be on the level that no amp swap or cable swap is going to totally magically fix.

There's no guarantee he will like the Senns driven by a differrent amp. But you can't ignore the severe incompatibility between the Creek and the 650s. He's driving cans with little mechanical damping from a very high impedance source. It's not about some tiny subjective nuances, it will demonstrably alter the response. Why not listen to the very man who designed the amp:
Quote:

OBH-11 is not a good match for your Sennheisers, plain and simple

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumley Nobody's saying, as far as I know, that the Senns will be 'magically transformed', just critically enhanced with a good amp, let alone cabling. There are quite a few Sound Engineers I know and trust who would disagree with you and T. about the following description being an even remotely accurate assessment of the HD650s; actually, it's dead wrong and demonstrably false. "...The problem? They are too soft (dark) in the high end and bloated in the bass. They lack "air" and "transparency". I would describe their sound as "euphonic". Easy to listen to, yes, but uninvolving. I expected more from the flagship Sennheisers. My last headphones were HD560s and I used them for 15 years and thought they were great..." I don't think that someone who's running such an amp to these cans is in * any * position, IMO, to pass judgement on these cans until he knows a little more about whereof he speaks; the questions he's finally asking of forum members is a promising start... I also know that this is not the HD650 'signature sound', any more than Grado HP1000s 'lack detail' or PS-1s 'lack bass'... Also, your impression that this is the 'signature', or 'basic' HD650 sound is also in complete error. Burned in and hooked into a good rig, not necessarily and exotic rig, they sound a good deal different than the above insipid quoted assessment.

Now you just sound like a Sennheiser fan boy. You're doing a disservice to the original poster by discounting an opinion that has also been expressed by others with better equipment numerous times and insulting his assessment at the same time.

Equating calling the Sennheiser dark and uninvolving to the PS-1 lacking bass or the HP-1 lacking detail is so far off base. No one argues those points, there are plenty of people who describe the Sennheisers that way.

On a side note, I'm not a Senneheiser hater (a convenient label some use in brow beating down those who dare to question the 650). I think it's a very technically competent headphone. I do find the sound signature too dark and uninvolving however, and the original poster is backed up by many others who share his belief.

 

[Asterix]

I can totally understand how someone would shy away from Sennheisers... they have a particular kind of sound. Compared to my my Beyer Dynamics (DT770's), they sound pretty diffused. The Beyer Dynamics have more focus, and have a more 'fun' sound. You feel like you are in the room with the musicians. The 650 makes you feel like your in a concert hall with them. It's a different experience.

I have also tried the Grado SR40. I didn't even know this model existed. I guess it must be old. It was just outstanding!!! And I listened to it direct from a portable cdp with no amp. I really would like to try some more Grados... the SR40's were fun, detailed, balanced, and warm and definately better than Sennheisers in it's class (like the HD497), IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula Now you just sound like a Sennheiser fan boy. You're doing a disservice to the original poster by discounting an opinion that has also been expressed by others with better equipment numerous times and insulting his assessment at the same time. Equating calling the Sennheiser dark and uninvolving to the PS-1 lacking bass or the HP-1 lacking detail is so far off base. No one argues those points, there are plenty of people who describe the Sennheisers that way. On a side note, I'm not a Senneheiser hater (a convenient label some use in brow beating down those who dare to question the 650). I think it's a very technically competent headphone. I do find the sound signature too dark and uninvolving however, and the original poster is backed up by many others who share his belief.

 

[Born2bwire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterix I have also tried the Grado SR40. I didn't even know this model existed. I guess it must be old. It was just outstanding!!! And I listened to it direct from a portable cdp with no amp. I really would like to try some more Grados... the SR40's were fun, detailed, balanced, and warm and definately better than Sennheisers in it's class (like the HD497), IMO.

The SR40's came out a couple years ago (since 2001 at least). They're the SR-60 drivers but in a housing that's made in China.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterix The Beyer Dynamics have more focus, and have a more 'fun' sound. You feel like you are in the room with the musicians. The 650 makes you feel like your in a concert hall with them. It's a different experience.

People keep saying this, and I can't understand it at all. I have a question... have you ever been to a concert in a concert hall like the Ambassador in Pasadena or the Disney hall downtown? It's OK if you haven't, I'm just curious what your frame of reference is when you say this...

There's so much involved with room acoustics and resonances that no headphone could come even close to reproducing, much less accidentally adding to a studio recording, that I find it hard to even understand where people are coming from when they say that a headphone sounds like it's "ten rows back in a concert hall".

See ya
Steve

 

[Tim D]

I have, and the Senn HD650 does treble right IMO. I'm not going to compare it to the point of it being 10th or 3rd or whatever row however, just to say the nature of my pair being absolutely devoid of grit and glare fits my experiences with live music.

I understand the point of detractors, but somehow must wonder if their arguments would have been better served against threads where people suggest purely cable upgrades as the fix and not a thread where even the amp designer suggests a different pairing. Otherwise it seems like they are parroting advice regardless of any objective data and more based on just their own feelings, but hey thats what everyone here does anyways right? Anyhow I just remembered why I stopped posting before.

 

[Born2bwire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot People keep saying this, and I can't understand it at all. I have a question... have you ever been to a concert in a concert hall like the Ambassador in Pasadena or the Disney hall downtown? It's OK if you haven't, I'm just curious what your frame of reference is when you say this... There's so much involved with room acoustics and resonances that no headphone could come even close to reproducing, much less accidentally adding to a studio recording, that I find it hard to even understand where people are coming from when they say that a headphone sounds like it's "ten rows back in a concert hall". See ya Steve

It's just a metaphor for the impression that you get from listening to them. To me, the Senns have a wide soundstage and a sense of space to them. The echoes and other reflections that are recorded in some music (like classical music) retains a more realistic feeling. The decays and echoes seem to hang in the air in addition to lacking a sense of direction. With cans like Grados, the soundstage is compressed and the sound is in your face. It's sitting in front of the band in the studio, very detailed but it diminishes the effect of the prerecorded sound cues. Comparing these impressions to listening at a concert hall and being in the tenth row to me are natural ways of describing the differences.

 

[tingj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumley I don't think that someone who's running such an amp to these cans is in * any * position, IMO, to pass judgement on these cans until he knows a little more about whereof he speaks; the questions he's finally asking of forum members is a promising start... I also know that this is not the HD650 'signature sound', any more than Grado HP1000s 'lack detail' or PS-1s 'lack bass'... Also, your impression that this is the 'signature', or 'basic' HD650 sound is also in complete error. Burned in and hooked into a good rig, not necessarily and exotic rig, they sound a good deal different than the above insipid quoted assessment.

Whoa, there... settle down Chumley. They're just a pair of headphones, after all.

 

[PeterR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tingj Whoa, there... settle down Chumley. They're just a pair of headphones, after all.

This is head-fi. Getting worked up about headphones is what we do...

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(...)Finally, yes, I am in exactly the right position to pass judgement on these cans since I own them.(...)

The cans on their own are nothing but a pair of overpriced earmuffs. To use them, you need an amp and a source (and yes, cables connecting everything, though indeed many people seem to be quite optimistic, to say the least, about their influence). All components together form a system, and without having used a component in a variety of different contexts, it can be quite hard to assess its characteristics. So yes, you are of course in a perfect position to pass judgement on your Meridian/Creek/HD-650 system. But you may consider the possibility that other systems incorporating these cans may sound much more to your liking.
The interaction of the Creek's high output impedance with the Sennheisers' impedance curve is not some voodoo mumbo jumbo, but an objective fact. The frequency response aberrations are orders of magnitude larger than any cable change could ever dream of.

 

[AdWiser]

I'd humbly suggest the new creek obh21SE version.

 

[fmplautus]

Peter R said...All components together form a system, and without having used a component in a variety of different contexts, it can be quite hard to assess its characteristics. So yes, you are of course in a perfect position to pass judgement on your Meridian/Creek/HD-650 system. But you may consider the possibility that other systems incorporating these cans may sound much more to your liking.
The interaction of the Creek's high output impedance with the Sennheisers' impedance curve is not some voodoo mumbo jumbo, but an objective fact. The frequency response aberrations are orders of magnitude larger than any cable change could ever dream of.

With all due respect pahleeese...spare us the technical sermon. In reading and studying about hifi, recording and audio for thirty odd years and it seems to me the complications in terms of impedence/frequency response/testing/measurement/etc. only grow more daunting, not less, even as the knowledge base expands. And yes, it is great that the engineers at Senn have access to these tools, and great that they are making progress, and yes, the Senn engineers and followers of this particular sonic signature are more than welcome to worship at the musical alter of their choosing (and I do think that the Sennheiser sonic "signature" is most defensible in terms of large scale classical music in a decent hall,) but that said, what this board and most of Sennheiser is about is marketing to the consumer.

When you read various retailers advertising the HD-650s as the "best" headphone in the world, and asking the provocative question of when Joe Consumer has ever owned the "best" of anything, as a come-on to buying said headphones, it's not exactly in a spirit of rational, scientific, empirical enquiry that such appeals are made. And obviously a lot of people on these boards have invested a lot in identifying with the Sennheiser approach to sound.

What I'd like is at least a recognition that music in some platonic sense exists out there for all of us and it is a highly subjective deal. The trade-offs made between the different R&D departments of the major players are just that, subjective trade-offs. It doesn't invalidate all other players approach. The Quad electrostatics didn't make the Klipshhorn invalid. JBLs don't wipe out work done by Sonus Faber. It's about different flavors. It would be a sad day if measurements and marketing in the end triumphed over people's musical taste. Not that it is going to happen. You can tell me I'm just one fair cable, or beautiful amplifier away from sonic Nirvanna with my HD-650s, but I doubt this is true, and no amount of futzing with the impedence curves is going to dramatically alter my ears to fit this year's Sennheiser fashion.

I do enjoy your posts by the way, and take this as a good humored offering in a spirited, ongoing effort to slow the Sennheiser juggernaut, and keep the Beatles from sounding like Brahms.